Author Topic: Condor Condiment Rebolting  (Read 2830 times)

Brad Young

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2025, 12:30:38 PM »


If anything maybe change the rating of the 10a variation.


I think there were comments above about this, but to help me not misunderstand those, change the 10a variation to what rating?

NOAL

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2025, 12:34:26 PM »
Change 10a to 5.8. 

Brad Young

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2025, 12:41:01 PM »
The variation would be 5.8? (the variation third pitch, going past the bolts.)

That's a big move (two grades). Would you be OK if I changed it to 5.9 instead??

And based on your comments I will leave the "main" route 5.8 (unless anyone else of you who have done it recently feels strongly about not - but I think Noal's comments are pretty convincing).

Brad Young

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2025, 12:48:11 PM »
And on a related subject, but way off the topic of the original thread, I recently led The Unmentionable and there's no way that it is 5.5. I changed it to 5.6 for the new book.

David and Russ were climbing at Pipsqueak and found Rightfoot significantly harder than Scragglepuss and wouldn't lead it because of the very high first bolt. I'd been wondering about this route for a while and changed Rightfoot from 5.7 to 5.8 R.



NOAL

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2025, 01:07:41 PM »
Quote
The variation would be 5.8? (the variation third pitch, going past the bolts.)
 

Yes.  Maybe someone else will chime in but I remember climbing this back in 2011 and thinking "O.K. here comes the 10a part" and getting to anchor and thinking "did I climb around it or something?"  This last time I jugged the pitch.  So I am basing that on what I remember  from almost 15 years ago. Seems like everyone  else is having the same sort of experience.

Here's a quote from mudworm about what Chris thought about pitch three which I think is spot on

Quote
Chirs described Mr. Bolt Jangles, our next objective to me, "it's a little harder than the '10a' variation on p3, but easier than p1." I understood exactly what he meant, and later thought it was accurate.

So basically he is saying pitch three is 5.8 and mudworm agrees.


mudworm

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2025, 01:57:04 PM »
I'll cast my vote. If I'm outvoted, so be it. I'm enjoying discussions like this.

5.9 for P1. If you look at the MP votes -- I did a grade vote to tick match -- the majority of the 5.8 graders there are confirmed follow for P1. This is not to downplay other people's follow experience or their opinion; it just aligns with my personal philosophy. I use KAYA app extensively to track my 5.11+ and above climbing at the Movement gyms. I never downgrade a leadable climb even if I danced up it on TR because I believe to most people, whether some admit to it or not, there is a difference in their experience between follow/TR and lead. (I would also never rate a climb unless I've climbed it successfully, which does put me in the minority.) There is a vote on MP from Chris. I am confident to say that his grade vote was more about adding PG; less about grade itself. Don't worry. I'm sure he'll correct me if I was wrong. I did not find the route PG, esp. if people go for it with a 5.9 climb in expectation. Another data point: at the end of the same day, I onsighted Burtons Below (5.9) in my approach shoes and felt solid. I would not want to lead P1 in my approach shoes. Well, NOAL rated that route 5.8 on MP. He sure is consistent! :D

5.9 for P3 (through the bolt). I wanted to say 5.8, but downgrading by two grades might be more than what most people can stomach. I chuckle at myself for saying this because I said it as if there are more than 6 people who cared. Apparently, everyone agreed that it's no harder than P1, so that's that! Would you consider erasing the 5.7 variation on P3? I really don't see anyone who has climbed up from P1 in their right mind would choose to go that way, especially now with a bomber bolt above.
Inch by inch, I will get there.

NOAL

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2025, 02:10:53 PM »
Quote
I onsighted Burtons Below (5.9) in my approach shoes and felt solid

I have climbed this with a sprained ankle as it started to rain and was slightly damp. I have also led it at least a half dozen times.

 I know a certain someone advocated hard to have this bumped up to 5.9 but it's 5.8.

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I chuckle at myself for saying this because I said it as if there are more than 6 people who cared

This made me chuckle too.

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Would you consider erasing the 5.7 variation on P3?

Agreed.  There are many things about this route that are kind of mysterious.  Would love to hear from Waldo what the story is.  Did they climb that way first and then come back another day and climbed up the 10a version.  The 5.7 R route would make sense if you were short on time and trying to get to the summit. 


ryn

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2025, 03:02:16 PM »
Would you consider erasing the 5.7 variation on P3? I really don't see anyone who has climbed up from P1 in their right mind would choose to go that way, especially now with a bomber bolt above.

With the bolt being where it is, and the climbing in the same difficulty as P1, I agree that most climbers will take the direct line past the bolt rather than left into the runout. Don't think the 5.7R option should be erased, lowering the grade of the "10a" would inform the 5.8/5.9 leaders the safer path is within their abilities, and they can make their own choices about which line to pursue.  I got to lead that pitch then inspect the moves again on a fixed line after placing new bolts. No way its harder than 5.9, even venturing a bit left or right from what I thought was the obvious line still felt similar difficulty as P1. And I only followed P1, so its possibly a tad easier.

...trying to be scrupulously accurate but slightly on the conservative side, 5.8 or 5.9?

5.8c

Brad Young

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2025, 03:46:18 PM »

...would you consider erasing the 5.7 variation on P3?


You only typed these words so that you could pause at work and hear me gasp from 140 miles away.

Brad Young

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2025, 03:48:17 PM »
Also, I typed my original question between tasks at work and did not mean to omit you Chris. Please feel free to chime in, although the heretic did take the time to quote you and so in a sense your opinions were stated again.

Brad Young

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2025, 03:53:17 PM »
It sounds like it really wouldn't be a sandbag to call the variation of pitch three 5.8 and that's what I'm leaning toward. Rate the whole/original route 5.8 (with its third pitch at 5.7 R) and the third pitch variation also 5.8.


Brad Young

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2025, 03:54:27 PM »
And mudworm, I called you a heretic above (which I can do because I know you have a good sense of humor). I just thought of a return to your original comment which I will put down here and then listen to you gasp from 140 miles away.

Do you remember my older daughter Katie? You know, the one you met and hung out with several times and in particular, helped with math problems in the car driving to the east side of the Sierra?





She's about to turn 30.

Brad Young

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2025, 03:55:58 PM »

5.8c


Aha. Ryan also has a sense of humor.

I think that comparing this variation pitch to the route's first pitch is really helpful.

Brad Young

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2025, 04:02:37 PM »
I have climbed this [Burtons Below] with a sprained ankle as it started to rain and was slightly damp. I have also led it at least a half dozen times.

 I know a certain someone advocated hard to have this bumped up to 5.9 but it's 5.8.


I guess that sometimes there's just no way around climb ratings being highly variable and subjective.

At last year's "old mens' trip" both Steve D and Caleb R led this on-sight. Dave Harden and Joel each followed (Joel had fallen from the first crux years ago and almost decked - one of two climbers who'd had that happen).

There was a strong consensus that the route has two 5.9 sections.

Even Steve Wong and I thought "5.8+" when we originally put it up (and before I realized that 5.9+ really is the only real "plus" or "minus" rating).

Steve D comes on here now and then. I'll see if I can get him to speak for himself.

EDIT: And I'm pretty sure that holds have broken off on this at the first crux. My very faint memory from when we put it up is that this lower section was a little easier than the pull-over at the top. It certainly surprised me when people started falling off at this part of the climb.



NOAL

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2025, 04:15:24 PM »
The truth is being revealed.  I can only climb 5.8.  Therefore many things become 5.8.  Just as many things look 5.7 from the ground. ;)

Brad Young

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2025, 05:10:02 PM »

The truth is being revealed.  I can only climb 5.8.  Therefore many things become 5.8.  Just as many things look 5.7 from the ground. ;)


You say this in jest, but I can't count the number of times that I've had discussions exactly like this with Tom about his routes in The Lost World (up here).

"Tom, that can't be 5.11c, I redpointed it."

"Tom, that can't be 5.11a, I on-sighted it."

His response is usually along the lines of how "everyone" thinks the route is [insert here his grade] and me not being aware of how "strong" I am. Uh-huh, right. I've actually never climbed with "everyone." But apparently he has.

(Love you Tom... even though you'll never read this.)




Chris Henry

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2025, 05:21:45 PM »
Fun discussion!

To disclose my own priors, I'm always happy to yap about grades i.e. " felt hard for 5.whatever" - but I generally avoid actually re-grading (up or down) unless it feels really out-of-whack with an area.

Pitch 1. Tricky and insecure for 5.8, but could plausibly be 5.8, so I wouldn't suggest modifying the grade.

If you look at the adjectives that everyone uses to describe it, I think we are all saying the same thing:

 - Among Ricky's comment on MP is the following statement: "It isn't that powerful, but parts are thin and insecure"
 - Mudworm comments down thread: "I was glad to be wearing my precision face climbing shoes on the lower part of p1."

My own experience (following) was the same. The climbing felt insecure, because in places the options for hands were poor and the climbing is ALL feet, sometimes on holds that do not inspire tremendous confidence (mostly referring to friction here rather than rock quality). That said, the feet all held and the pitch is fairly low angle so support from hands isn't really needed.

I imagine the experience of leading it would feel quite different, especially pre-bolt replacement.

Pitch 3. After all the careful climbing below, this section feels like quite a relief.

P3 is steeper than P1 ... but there are freaking jugs (hands and feet) everywhere. I should say, the "10a" section has that weird flakey exoskeleton sometimes encountered at Pinnacles. But, even avoiding all the holds of this nature there were plenty of good options.

Comparing the P1 and P3 is hard. It is like comparing Walk on the Wild Side (5.8 in JT) to Gem (5.8 in JT).

But, P3 isn't nearly as demanding as other Pinnacles 10a (i.e. Terranean Tango, Stupendous Man, Dances with Warthogs) or 5.9s (Little Javelina, Jorgie's Crack, Wet Kiss). So a downward revision may be appropriate.




Brad Young

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2025, 05:55:56 PM »

...

Pitch 1. Tricky and insecure for 5.8, but could plausibly be 5.8, so I wouldn't suggest modifying the grade.

If you look at the adjectives that everyone uses to describe it, I think we are all saying the same thing:

 - Among Ricky's comment on MP is the following statement: "It isn't that powerful, but parts are thin and insecure"
 - Mudworm comments down thread: "I was glad to be wearing my precision face climbing shoes on the lower part of p1."

My own experience (following) was the same. The climbing felt insecure, because in places the options for hands were poor and the climbing is ALL feet, sometimes on holds that do not inspire tremendous confidence (mostly referring to friction here rather than rock quality). That said, the feet all held and the pitch is fairly low angle so support from hands isn't really needed.


I think that people who've done a lot of granite slab climbing feel easier about the pitch because, yes... this is really slabby climbing.

Kinda like Dos Equis?

Chris Henry

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2025, 06:22:47 PM »
I think that people who've done a lot of granite slab climbing feel easier about the pitch because, yes... this is really slabby climbing.

Kinda like Dos Equis?

Agreed - P1 climbs like a granite slab. Close your eyes and imagine Tuolumne.

Dos Equis is an interesting comparison - but I'm not sure I agree (entirely). It's been quite a while since I climbed it - but I remember being able to find very secure stances involving stemming (vs pure slab technique).


Gavin

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Re: Condor Condiment Rebolting
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2025, 06:28:10 PM »
I guess it has been a bit since I've looked at M n C posts!

Noal - thanks for the trip report! To you, Marco, and Ryan - thanks for all your efforts rebolting! Much appreciated! I will have to finally get on Condor Condiment one of these days.