Ranger Bolts rebolting

[kylequeener]

So do we agree or not about moving bolts on a climb like this?

Bolts don't need to be moved for free climbing in my opinion. I've never heard any comments about the bolts being in bad spots until today and I've been around for over a decade now. I've seen countless friends on this thing too and they just extend on a couple of the bolts. I'm surprised you're open to the idea, too.

[Jim Thornburg]

If there are climbers actively climbing Ranger Bolts as an aid ladder (and Kyle assures me that there are) I'll concede they should stay. I do feel strongly that overall the wall is a mess of poorly positioned and extraneous bolts. Kyle, maybe you can convince me otherwise if we go there together. I disagree that just because some stronger climber can make all the clips and deal with the rope drag that that means the bolts are in the best places. I don't understand the arguments for not putting the bolts in the best possible spots.

How about this as a solution:

The aid ladder stays.

Let's have a climbing party on Ranger Bolts to come up with a consensus on the best spots for the free climbing bolts and anchors. Let's replace all the free climbing bolts with SS glue-in eye bolts and once those dry let's take out and patch all the old bolts (both aid and free climbing, if any) that are extraneous.

Basically, let's clean the face up as best we can, enhancing the free climbing experience and aesthetics while preserving the aid climbing experience.

[Brad Young]

I like carrots  

This is a traditional Mudn'Crud post, but it's meaning may only be known to those who are frequently on the site. Interpreting it for those who aren't on the site that often: "I'm reading this and I'm interested in the subject, but I don't have anything I want to say on point for now"

At least that's how I interpret it  

And to add my opinion on "reinforcing" holds: I think it sets a terrible, terrible precedent and that it should always be avoided. "Always" as in it should never be done.

It's Pinnacles; holds have a certain life expectancy, and then they fall off. Deal with it as our ancestors always did.

[kylequeener]

If there are climbers actively climbing Ranger Bolts as an aid ladder (and Kyle assures me that there are) I'll concede they should stay. I do feel strongly that overall the wall is a mess of poorly positioned and extraneous bolts. Kyle, maybe you can convince me otherwise if we go there together. I disagree that just because some stronger climber can make all the clips and deal with the rope drag that that means the bolts are in the best places. I don't understand the arguments for not putting the bolts in the best possible spots.

How about this as a solution:

The aid ladder stays.

Let's have a climbing party on Ranger Bolts to come up with a consensus on the best spots for the free climbing bolts and anchors. Let's replace all the free climbing bolts with SS glue-in eye bolts and once those dry let's take out and patch all the old bolts (both aid and free climbing, if any) that are extraneous.

Basically, let's clean the face up as best we can, enhancing the free climbing experience and aesthetics while preserving the aid climbing experience.

I trust you Jim to move things around. But still, I've never felt like I've had rope drag on that pitch. Ever. I know you'll do it right though. I'd help if I wasn't temporarily out of the area this season.

[clink]

It's Pinnacles; holds have a certain life expectancy, and then they fall off. Deal with it as our ancestors always did.

How far back? Let's see if I can kill my dinner with this stone that came off the mountain. I like meat with my carrots.

[mungeclimber]

I'm surprised you're open to the idea, too.

Me too. Kind of why I was wondering if Mark was getting what I was saying.

But I look at it like this, right now we're all just talking online in a vacuum for the most part. The principle of rebolting and using good bolts guides us. The principle of rebolting using the existing hole, when possible guides us. But we know that wedgies are going to be hard to pull and make the hole bad. <--sounds funny

If we have to redrill they'll get moved anyways, and it mostly is a free climb these days, so some movement makes sense and is a compromise that may prevent a bad clip inducing injury (RB is a sport climb so getting hurt doesn't make sense on something like that).

Now with that said, I'm still pretty firm on the idea of keeping the aidability there. The Bay Area has few aid climbs. Aid climbing is a legitimate form of climbing. The FA was done as an aid climb. And I don't think the two concepts of 'some movement of the bolt for a free climb' and 'retaining a sustainable aid climb' are mutually exclusive.

Perhaps we'll find a tricky bolt on it that proves it is neither a good aid bolt position, nor a good free clip, I'm not sure. But let's bust out some topos and pics and see which ones are actually problematic and get opinions to see if an extendo is easier on 2 bolts, than redoing a bunch of them if the bolts are otherwise solid. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm still at work without my book.


To update my thought on that first anchor. I like keeping it somewhere where I have a chance of freeing up to it, but would go with consensus.

[mungeclimber]

This is a traditional Mudn'Crud post, but it's meaning may only be known to those who are frequently on the site. Interpreting it for those who aren't on the site that often: "I'm reading this and I'm interested in the subject, but I don't have anything I want to say on point for now"

At least that's how I interpret it  

Random non sequiter response to what would otherwise be random non sequiter posts.

I think random is redumbnant with non sequiter.

Signing off,
M

[mynameismud]

If there are climbers actively climbing Ranger Bolts as an aid ladder (and Kyle assures me that there are) I'll concede they should stay. I do feel strongly that overall the wall is a mess of poorly positioned and extraneous bolts. Kyle, maybe you can convince me otherwise if we go there together. I disagree that just because some stronger climber can make all the clips and deal with the rope drag that that means the bolts are in the best places. I don't understand the arguments for not putting the bolts in the best possible spots.

How about this as a solution:

The aid ladder stays.

Let's have a climbing party on Ranger Bolts to come up with a consensus on the best spots for the free climbing bolts and anchors. Let's replace all the free climbing bolts with SS glue-in eye bolts and once those dry let's take out and patch all the old bolts (both aid and free climbing, if any) that are extraneous.

Basically, let's clean the face up as best we can, enhancing the free climbing experience and aesthetics while preserving the aid climbing experience.

Jim, I am probably one of the least strongest climber to get on this climb and I have never had a problem with rope drag.  The only clip I ever had a problem with was clipping the first anchor.  That was always a PITA.  I realize I never got it clean but I could consistently get to the first anchor.  I could get to the second anchor with hangs, that dyno is just a bear.

I do think that the wall could probably be cleaned up but I do not understand why folks think the free version is so badly bolted. 

[mungeclimber]

Jim, sounds good. Lets look at the bolts on paper. Who else has climbed it to the top free?

[clink]

 Jody Langford started a thread last September on "Pinnacles NM Climbing, 60's and 70's, (Photos)"

 One of the photos was of Ranger bolts, the following was the caption.

1973-Doug Cardinal and partner on FA of "Ranger Bolts" on The Monolith. Originally 5.6 A1, was freed in 1989 by John Yablonski, Jim Thornburg, and Scott Frye at 5.13a.

  Whether as individuals we spend our leisure time after duties or play browsing guidebooks, comic books, history books, climbing magazines and it seems possibly even Vogue and People, the discussion is enlightening. Today's fad , tomorrows classic? It is entertaining to hear the "this is how we do things now in the big peoples world", but is so important to not sit idle and to leave realizations for future generations to scratch their heads about.

 If the original line and intent of the bolt ladder is nixed, out of undo as it may be respect for the First unAestheticalists please change the name to something more appropriate.

 

[Brad Young]

...the principle of rebolting using the existing hole, when possible guides us. But we know that wedgies are going to be hard to pull and make the hole bad. <--sounds funny

If we have to redrill they'll get moved anyways, and it mostly is a free climb these days, so some movement makes sense [emphasis added].

This type of bolt movement is, in my opinion, close to inevitable when re-bolting.

More skilled re-bolters (Bruce, Clint and J.C.) are occasionally able to re-use old holes. I know Jim McCon has reused old holes when going from 1/4 inch or 3/8 inch to 1/2 inch bolts. But I've never had much luck in re-using the old hole.

Such movement of bolt locations (specifically when rebolting bolt ladders) has been discussed on this site. For example, I posted about moving aid bolts on the route Icarus on the Icarus thread on this site. I moved one bolt over a foot because I simply couldn't find good enough rock to drill in. And then I re-positioned other bolts above that to maintain the continuity of the ladder (and this part of Icarus is still an aid ladder - it hasn't gone free).

So what Jim is proposing isn't unheard of. Add to the calculation also Ranger Bolt's somewhat unique history (at least in my opinion, per my comment above).

EDITED: After more communications with Bruce and Clint, it became clear to me that I'd misinterpreted their comments about how they rebolted Resurrection Wall. So I removed my comments about that re-bolting from this post. I then re-worded my last comment slightly.

[clink]

Secondly was dealing with the loose hold near the top of the route which is of a size big enough to create serious consequences to the belayer if it pulled out but if removed, would drastically change the character of the route.

Machete Direct has a similar issue, or did 10 years ago.

[Atomizer]

This discussion seems important so i will exit my hiding spot for a moment

Ranger Bolts was one the first climbs I witnessed at pinnacles. In fact it was first day that I ever climbed outside I watched Pete King at nearly 50 years old cruise all the way to the lip putting the draws on as a warmup. Watching that left a big impression. A year or two later Ranger Bolts was my first aid climb. Which was awesome. I loved pulling on all those old bolts. And I learned a lot that day about mank.

1. I don't think any of the old aid bolts should be removed. This is an important part of pinnacles history for myself and many people. I'd like to see those bolts stay exactly how they are with out replacing. Honestly I'm kind of bummed that every route at pinnacles no matter how obscure is getting rebolted,then the bolts just go hang in Bruce or Clint's garages. Sometimes I want to see the historical stuff I'd hate to see it all gone.

2. Fully in support of a rebolting effort on the free climb. I would prefer to see the bolts in same holes or very nearby. Except for the 3rd or 4th boot which is hard to clip if you end up doing the little traverse to the right. When I started working the route I used extendable slings where Kyle suggests. But after a while I noticed it didn't see to make much of a difference and that how I led the route with just normal length draws in those spots. I also have not had a problems putting the draws on while leading. But if I was onsighting I would be psyched to follow a line of new bolts as to not get confused.

3. I would be happy to see all the current anchors removed. Based on how the clipping hold has continuously morphed at the first anchor I think the first pitch isn't really a route anymore. The anchors before the lip should be removed too. The line goes to the top. I'm disgusted by the huge amount of chain up at that top anchor that was placed a few years ago. Basically the most unsightly thing I've ever seen at pinnacles. I agree with kyle that the anchor would be best placed before the final rollover just topping onto the summit. I think there have been a lot of visions that have led to the creation of the route but I see all the anchors in the current locations as destroying the purity of the route. Removing those as suggested would improve the route IMHO.

4. Gluing the hold is a sticky situation. It was a very important rest stop for me when I did the route. If it goes the route would likely be an 8a at that point. So it would officially be considered a hard sport route by euro standards. It would be awesome to see it stay. But that would be an experiment and since that hold is a polished knob that is loose and its doubtful gkue would hold it on for very long anyways unless you encase a few of the edges of the knob in it. I'm not a pro but I've seen the best in the world glue stuff on or reinforce and I can say no one on this forum has the skills to do it right, not even myself. Given the nature of the rock I doubt a fix would last more than 15 years even given the European techniques that are well established using Sika anchor fix. I've seen many routes in Europe where a hold is glued from behind then breaks off anyways. Then you end up crimping on glue. I'm going to go with what Kelly Rich told me years ago, "if you want to do something hard at pinnacles, you better do it now..." So the hold might break but that will be part of the evolution of the route. I think it will still be climbable once the hold is gone.

I'm glad this discussion is happening. And happy it was posted up on facebook
I hope everyone is well. I'll have much free time starting March. I'll be in the region for a bit. Would be willing to devote some time to the process. And FYI I'm not looking back at what I just wrote for errors because gotta get to work. So Brad be easy on me.

[Brad Young]

This discussion seems important so i will exit my hiding spot for a moment

We're honored.

4. Gluing the hold is a sticky situation.

Groan 

So Brad be easy on me.

Unfair request - it's not possible.

[clink]

The problem with many reinforcing jobs is how they look and perform. There is a method that would outlast the USA and wouldn't look like North Korean craftsmanship without using power tools and be undetectable if the hold is a typical Monolith type.

[mynameismud]

This type of bolt movement is, in my opinion, close to inevitable when re-bolting.

More skilled re-bolters (Bruce, Clint and J.C.) are occasionally able to re-use old holes. I know Jim McCon has reused old holes when going from 1/4 inch or 3/8 inch to 1/2 inch bolts. But I've never had much luck in re-using the old hole.

Such movement of bolt locations (specifically when rebolting bolt ladders) has been discussed on this site. For example, I posted about moving aid bolts on the route Icarus on the Icarus thread on this site. I moved one bolt over a foot because I simply couldn't find good enough rock to drill in. And then I re-positioned other bolts above that to maintain the continuity of the ladder (and this part of Icarus is still an aid ladder - it hasn't gone free).

Bruce and Clint did the same thing a few months ago when replacing bolts on Resurrection Wall (and Clint was smart enough to plan ahead about this). While making new holes for re-bolts, they moved bolts (as I understand it) on the now-free bolt ladder, so that they were actually clip-able without massive stretching to the left. This was discussed on the re-bolting thread on this site. I think I recall requests for and approval of such re-postioning in that discussion (maybe on page 6 of that thread?). I don't recall whether I posted my thoughts about those actions then, but I certainly thought they did the right thing.

So what Jim is proposing isn't unheard of - especially given Ranger Bolt's somewhat unique history.

When we rebolted Lava Falls and Shake and Bake we managed to redrill almost all the holes.  Most of those went from 3/8 to 1/2 x 6" glue ins and this was all done by hand.  Clint did most of the pulling and a lot of drilling.  I just drilled.  Well I did try and pull one bolt and my results were sub-optimal.

[mudworm]

Interjection: for reference, here is the link to the Facebook post:
https://www.facebook.com/zacharias.gustav/posts/952842509120

One needs to have the right permission/connections on Facebook to see the content, which is exactly why I feel ok to post the link here.

Someone had trouble registering. Here are the expected answers to the questions on Reg page:


Carry on...

[mutemudder]

Finally got on here.

so it seems like most people are ok with the top anchors being removed and the free version to get rebolted and possibly adjusted to better position.  And it also seems like people are ok with reinforcing the cobble if it can be done in a sightly manner.

 It seems like the bolt ladder is gonna stay because 2-3 people in the world still use it every 2-3 years. whatever i guess.. its about to rust off anyway.

this leaves a couple deals left.. should we move the midway anchor down a bolt so that it becomes a more popular route to do?

and do we think its worth actually having an anchor just above the first lip past the last and final redpoint crux? my thoughts are that it isnt necessary as i wouldnt mind top roping from the summit anchors if i were to top rope the route.

thanks for the great input so far folks.

[Brad Young]

mutemudder,

I'm glad to see another new poster here. I'm glad to see all new posters here. I hope you'll stay around after this thread sinks down the page too (after all, you must climb at Pinns a fair amount, or you wouldn't be interested enough to post here in the first place).

But your post bothers me. Here's why. I have no idea who you are, and I don't wish to pick an unnecessary fight, but your comments about the bolt ladder seem snotty:

It seems like the bolt ladder is gonna stay because 2-3 people in the world still use it every 2-3 years. whatever i guess.. its about to rust off anyway.

Did you intend your comments to make you sound too good for aid climbing? To sound better than other climbers? Did you intend to sound so utterly elite that those who want to practice a technique that is still alive and well are just beneath you?

That's the passive/aggressive message you're sending. And I don't care if you're so strong that you can onsight Ranger Bolts as a free climb, you're just another climber. People who want to aid the route are as legitimate and are as good as you.

It might be better for you to post like Kyle and Jim (two great climbers for sure); in a way that recognizes others desires, abilities and achievements for what they are: as important as your own.

Sorry, your comment really rubbed me the wrong way. Tell me if I read it incorrectly, or if I'm wrong and if you convince me I'll apologize. Otherwise you ought to consider changing your post or apologizing yourself.

Also, as to reinforcing/gluing the weak hold, "people" aren't OK with that if by "people" you really meant to imply that there's a consensus to do that. There isn't a consensus for that, although there's probably a majority (and, having said my peace on that subject I intend to leave it alone and let Jim and other learned, conscientious climbers who do any of this work decide what to do on this issue too).

[JC w KC redux]

The aid ladder stays.

Let's have a climbing party on Ranger Bolts to come up with a consensus on the best spots for the free climbing bolts and anchors. Let's replace all the free climbing bolts with SS glue-in eye bolts and once those dry let's take out and patch all the old bolts (both aid and free climbing, if any) that are extraneous.

Basically, let's clean the face up as best we can, enhancing the free climbing experience and aesthetics while preserving the aid climbing experience.

This seems to be the best of both worlds, the most concise explanation and the best long term solution.
All that is left is to set a date and get on with the work.
I agree with Brad - that reinforcing holds is strictly taboo. If the route is destined to evolve - so be it.