"Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith

[Atomizer]

BIg dumb animals lurking around the monolith

Last Sunday we did our normal head to the monolith and do the sunny POD and Hawaiian Noises warmup. I noticed some folks looking at the steep face just to the left of the big overhang down and left of Foreplay. Latter I run into them on lunch rock and overhear them talking about putting in a bolt ladder. I tell them the line they are thinking of is likely 5.14+ if the rocks stays put, and that Sharma had brushed it off as too hard. I suggest they try the new 5.12b next to Black Dagger instead. but they brush it off with a air of, we’re not good enough for that. i just figured since they wanted to bolt a 5.14 they could try our 5.12b.

We head off in our own direction to huddle on the shady side of the Monolith in an attempt to crush the hard. Latter in the day MArk discovers that he left something up on lunch rock and heads off the retrieve it. He comes back down ranting that there are some guys drilling out of the pit left of Tailspin. I tell him that they are drilling a bolt ladder. Mark goes nuts... and we decide to go talk to the perpetrators.

I plan my actions carefully. “I ask are you really intending to drill a bolt ladder there?”

The larger animal who is big and thick like a goriila but with some extra body fat, and with one of those white things on his nose that signal a broken nose, is preparing to hang on their first bolt that was drilled from the ground. He says, “no we are not puttin up a bolt ladder, we are aiding this on bolts which we will remove latter, once we figure out where the bolts should go.”

I tell him that many high level climbers have looked at this and decided it’s too hard to bolt on lead and that drilling a bolt ladder is poor style in this area, and that the rock 25 feet up turns to choss.

He says, “we are not drilling a bolt ladder, we are making a free climb, we will likely not be able to climb it, but it will be bolted for someone else.”

We say, “this route will likely be chopped due to your style”

“Big Dumb Animal” now emerges in a rage driven from some unknown corner of his brain,  “I will chop every bolt at Pinnacles if anyone touches these bolts!”

I question him, “listen to what you just said because it doesn’t make since to me, you are not drilling a bolt ladder, but you are aiding up on bolts that you will remove? That seems like it goes againsgt the ethics of this area and causes an irrepairable impact to this resource.”

“I don’t care about this place!”

“ then why are you here then?”

“ We are having an adventure”

As we watch he pulls himself up onto the bolt with just an aider and a daisy. No rope tied into his harness, we recommend a rope. And ask if they have hooks. which they do.

Mark, John, and I get irritated because these guys don’t seem to get what we are talking about. So we head towards discovery wall, but half way there we are still so heated we decide to go back and try to force some rationality into there skulls. When we approach animal #1 asks, “are you the same guys from ten minutes ago”. We say no we are not. They seem relieved and tell us the story of the guy that said sharma couldn’t do it.  we notice that he now has a hook on an edge a few feet above that bolt. The hook is on an edge that I cannot even see. It looks like something Dave Allfrey described on an El Cap route that was considered A3+ hooking. A rope is now tied into the animal and connected to belayer below.

I say, “wow you are hooking now”

He asks, “do you think this will hold?”

“Bounce test that thing and you will find out”

Mark says “weight it, weight it...”

He won’t weight the hook. but then reaches up and touches a piece of rock that proccedes to fall on his belayer who is not wearing a helmet. He just takes the hook off without weighting it. and lowers down.,”I think you guys are faggots!...Faggots!”

I say, “well we could say similar things about you”

Mark says, “we don’t want to fight you”

He says, “ I don’t want to fight you either”

After about 15 minutes of non-confrontational discussion we seem to have pushed some kind of rationality into his brain. But the two of them keep insisting on facts that we know from years of climbing at the Pinns are inaccurate. Like when they say the rock on the upper part is definitely solid, which I know is otherwise. And that you can’t bolt hard routes on lead here, which I tell them is not true as some folks just put up a 13d on lead. We just ask them to only put in 5 piece bolts. And if you just want to aid there is an aid route just to the left put up by Bridwell.

But in the end they just want to have their adventure, but I fear that they will damage the  rock putting in bolts on a route which is far above their abilties possibly botching the placements leaving a grid of empty holes. We are confused as to whether this our place to tell these guys how to act. And they seem to even understand how foreign their approach to this climb is to us. They just didn’t seem to care about local ethics and customs. Which hurts us when they are aiding one of Pinnacles last great problems using an ethic which damages the resource for putting up a route at a difficulty which they admittedly don’t climb at. This event was two weeks ago. Not sure what their progress is on that route at that point. Any advice? I'm sure there are some other points I missed about this event, I will let mittens chime in.

[mynameismud]

Next time wait until he gets out on lead then throw rocks at him.  works for marmots and big mean dogs.  Just remember to put on your running shoes first.

[Brad Young]

Wow. These people seem like total idiots.

I share your dismay, and so I don't have much else to elaborate on about that. I will, however add a few thoughts that come to mind:

1. You said: "They just didn’t seem to care about local ethics and customs." Welcome to the real world. Like bullies, litterbugs and road hogs and ragers, some people cannot/will not see beyond themselves and their "rights." They will do whatever they damn well please and no amount of influence will dissuade them. In the greater world this is what prevents a true, enlightened reaction to things like global warming.

As for the bright side? Maybe it this: they were apparently acting in (stubborn) ignorance instead of knowing disregard?

2. I worry for the future of our sport and am glad I'm 51 years old and started climbing before gyms made climbing accessible to "everyman."

3. Gyms don't teach ethics. Gyms exist to make money. I don't begrudge them this; I own a business and I run it to make money. But gyms teach some things that have a very bad influence on climbing (not on "outdoor climbing," on climbing; gyms aren't climbing, they're exercise). They teach:

- Safety above all else;

- Bolts next to cracks;

- Everyone can do everything;

- "Setting" routes is great, noble and heroic (even if you are totally clueless,  and - PET PEEVE COMING HERE - real climbing routes are NOT "set," they are done, made or established. If I hear one more ignoramus comment about who "set" a route I may barf on the speaker).

4. There is hope. Why? Two reasons:

- None of this is new. The world has always been full of pukes and these people are no different than other idiots that preceded them (as an example, just recall the fiasco of the 1989 "guidebook" to Pinnacles). Yes, there seem to be more climbing pukes in the modern era, but there are, overall, more climbers in the modern era. I doubt whether the puke to non-puke ratio has changed much; and

- We've got young, strong active climbers like you and Mark who do care and who do pay attention. I've been looking for a way to compliment you and Mark on this subject and this is the chance: Although I'm somewhat jaded about "new" climbers, and about Pinnacles being turned into a "safe" climbing area by bolting the holy crap out of new and old lines together, guys like you and Mark exist and you matter. Twenty years ago, Davis, Rubine and Rich saved Pinnacles ethics; they made sure that for the following 20 years the predominant climbing value at Pinnacles would be adventure and not "safetyoverallelse". I feel that that "torch" is now with you and Mark, and (I don't know them) your circle of friends. This gives me hope.

Other young climbers who post here, like Mucci and Coobledik are part of the new generation too, but, without wanting to ruffle feathers, the real hope for adventure at Pinnacles is with guys like you two who establish and climb seriously hard free routes in perfect style.

5. Thank you for trying to talk sense into the senseless.

6. Did you get their names?

End of rant.

[MUCCI]

I thought this was a joke, like the short story of the dam overflowing. 

A few thoughts:

Recent events (unchecked bolting) have made it very clear that the stewards of Pinnacles are responsible for maintaining the local ethic/style.  The NPS has taken a hands off approach since the big "meeting" on rapbolting, deferring to the regular climbers to uphold our combined approach to new routing. 

There have been gray areas as to this or that but all in all, pinnacles is designed to "Self regulate".  MOST guys who drill on lead know when to say when, if not you get a bolt ladder right?

I am very proud that you and Mark/John and any others have spoken up to those who have no regard for the rich history of high end free climbing at the pinns.

Brad is right, Most who enjoy pinns are regular joe's myself included. You and others who push hard at pinnacles are the future and the present, setting a standard for those who are good enough to test their mettle on the stone.  I get psyched hearing about all of the proud routes getting repeats by your crew and others.  New, hard routes that have gone in recently, have had tons of time and labor spilled to "Make it right".  I will stand up for guys like you, who have passed on projects, opting to save a summit for the next generation.

[MUCCI]

There is no excuse for the destruction going on at pinnacles right now.  Bolts are getting slammed in by people who have no idea what they are doing. Routes are being erased, encroached or comfortized.

I applaud the action you guys took, barring throwing rocks (which I would consider myself) you did what any steward would have done.

Then, after the bolts are in, quietly and with pride held for the history of the area, you erase the route.  Leave nothing but a bold statement.

Pinnacles deserves this.

[F4?]

This is odd to start a line from in the pit.....below Foreplay and Tailspin??

There are already bolt holes already there..(right under tailspin)....so it's been tried and the bolts pulled. Whoever did it even made a nice epoxy hold to get started (this was back in 95??) and the offensive hold was removed (not me). That's how hard it is down there!

Yes it is sad that folks try to push a line without much thought of the end result. At that level (not that I'm even close) wouldn't a TR 1st seem in order? Karl no??

Why work to put in a new route..? Why not try Great Spectacular? It hasn't been freed, it's obscure. Heck might even have a loose hold or 2...plus all the bolts are already in...

And if it's a troll...DIE!

[mungeclimber]

i don't have an objection to bolt ladders. I would object to time, place, manner of such a bolt ladder.

in principle one can't object if one likes other routes that are aidable like a bolt ladder.

[MUCCI]

in principle one can't object if one likes other routes that are aidable like a bolt ladder.

Bolt ladders WERE a style.  Until they were freed.  No they are as shunned as a chipped route. 

When I climb the bridwell bolts aid ladder, I understand that the route was (at the time) cutting edge.  No hooks were used and small bolts were incorporated to really keep the commitment.

Is the ladder drilled by these bozos comparable to bridwell bolts?  NO.

Carrying the attitude that "well as long as it's ground up" does not hold weight with me.  Not when climbers at the highest level, who tried to failure to send ground up, resort to rap bolting to finish.  Everybody got all quiet.....Where is the voice of opposition?

Nobody walked away from that one.  Save it for another generation?  Nope.

Pinnacles is losing the game, slowly the standards of recent years are being nicked away bit by bit.

Rap bolting, drilling on established routes, adding convienance anchors, and drilling up through an existing route with a bolt ladder is all acceptable now.


 

[mungeclimber]

I hear ya Mucci.  Though I'm going to stick with my 'time, place and manner' restriction on all manner of non-clean route making, but covering some of your arguments in the process may get me to my point eventually. Apologies for the rambling here.

Bolt ladders WERE a style.  Until they were freed.  No they are as shunned as a chipped route. 

Similarly, by that argument Iron, like angles, blades and beaks, too was a style. New aid routes that use iron and destroy rock and make clean climbing easier, like a chipped route, should be shunned, by that principle?

When I climb the bridwell bolts aid ladder, I understand that the route was (at the time) cutting edge.  No hooks were used and small bolts were incorporated to really keep the commitment.

Not having aided the bolt ladder, I understand the crux is the top moves, not the ladder itself. I don't believe it was put in as a cutting edge route. I think Craig Larry and Jim were just out for a good time in the stirrups. There is nothing cutting edge about small bolts at that time. 1/4" bolts were fairly standard until the 80s across the country, and even then 5/16ths were more common. At Pinnacles, I'd have to defer to someone more familiar with the history of star dryvs and how easy they were to obtain, but I bet they were more expensive than was worth spending on what was going to be a lark of an aid route. There wasn't hardly anyone climbing at Pinns then. An aid route on mono wouldn't have been that odd.

Where is the voice of opposition?

I'm opposed. don't get me wrong. Not sure I follow the reference though.


Time & Place: For all things there is a time and place. This is a different time than it was before. Bolt ladders are boring in most cases. Why put a lot of bolts for something that most people won't climb in this day in age so close to the trail, so close to free routes, so close to an EXISTING BOLT LADDER!  It's like pissing into the wind and pulling on the cape of superman at the same time.

Manner: Based on the report it sounds like these guys were using stud anchors, not expansion sleeves. Not only does it make it hard to remove later, but if they rust out, replacing them is going to be a pain for ordinary humans in years to come.  Stud anchors are not the standard at Pinnacles and are not a goal to achieve IMHO.


Those points together make me think these guys really do want to appeal to the adventurous side. They just don't have the context and people to bounce ideas off of.


Not to just harp on you Mucci bro. But we're clearly not making it easier for them to reach out to us if the first thing we do is lambast them. I suspect Mark and Adam had the right approach in general, now we just need to find out who they are and see if they want to apply their drilling elbows to something really worthy. gnaw mean?


I mean, hell, have any of us gone down to pull and patch the anchor bolts on the new Roof route yet?


I say beer discussion with em, and then if they drive that ladder to the top, we call it what it is. My crow bar is in the garage.

[MUCCI]

I dig the feelings this thread has summoned. 

Bolt ladders in blank rock are not the same as a feature being used for progression.

Bridwell bolts was cutting edge. Anything at pinns at that time was cutting edge.  It was also a time when the precious resource of rock was abundant.  Now thanks to efforts and agreements NOT to rap bolt, there is still some stone left for a few kids to test themselves on.  We witnessed this with Mark and Adam's route in the area.

Conversely, at the other end of the spectrum, CONSTANOAN was stolen from those that would have started from the ground.  Nobody is pissed about that one, cuz it's too easy.

This troll thread had me thinking the bolt ladder was going to join foreplay.  I was mistaken and made comments above that should be disregarded.

Munge- The Reason I used the new "hard" route as an example is three fold.

A: Rap bolting is kosher at pinnacles, provided you do it at a high level. 
B: Rap bolting has replaced drilling a bolt ladder, for style purposes.
C: Disregarding a standard set for managing the "effect" of certain tactics on the FA.

"You can't climb .13 from the ground at pinnacles".  That was the standard. "Hooks just won't work at that level"

No saving it for the next generation, because they will just rap bolt it right?

I dig this exchange, Munge I hear you on the level, just venting here.

 If they drilled a ladder route, I would treat it just like that route under the ROOF.  Hopefully they wouldn't slam an anchor in on forplay's crux mini corner.

[karl]

This troll thread had me thinking the bolt ladder was going to join foreplay.  I was mistaken and made comments above that should be disregarded.

I am confused... did you get verification that this was a "troll"?  I hope so, because if the rock at the top of Tailspin is any indication, the rock where those guys are drilling could be bad enough to be unsafe even with bolts.  The last thing the Monolith needs is another bolt ladder.   The disturbing number of bolt that exist on Ranger Bolt Ladder is enough for the entire cliff.  In addition, there is Bridwell Bolts, which after Brad's heroic rebolting effort is still has too many bolts.

[karl]

Yes it is sad that folks try to push a line without much thought of the end result. At that level (not that I'm even close) wouldn't a TR 1st seem in order? Karl no??

I don't post often, but I have been a big proponent of at least rapping down and checking out sections, looking for possible obvious lines of weaknesses, ensuring that the rock does not just appear solid, and ensuring that the route is worth being bolted before the hammer ever comes out of the bag.  And if there is still doubt, then top-roping should be in order.

There are a great many unfinished routes at the Pinns precisely because there has been a great deal of opposition to that idea.  The downside is obvious when you look at the two unfinished routes between Ranger Bolts and Gorillas in the Moss.

The one just right of Ranger Bolts ignores the obvious climbing weakness (which is straight up) and head diagonally towards Ranger Bolts presumably because the hooking would have been easier in that direction.  However, it is hard to imagine a possible line that would not just go right into Ranger Bolts using that bolt line.

--- ---

Now, maybe the two people in the story were looking for the adventure of hooking and bolting there way up something.   I think it would not be unreasonable to explain that The Monolith has a great number of routes and there is little room for anymore.  If they can't be deterred, then it maybe explain that there are numerous areas within and outside of Pinns that have rock that no one would object to a bolted/aided/scrambled FA.  I can think of many.

[karl]

Lastly...  Mucci, it would appear that you are unhappy with our effort on "West of the Sun".  I have been climbing at Pinnacles for about 14 years and have a love for it and it's history.  I hope that if you have read my original report of how we went about bolting it, you can understand our decision making.   We didn't just throw in the towel and start rap bolting to the top, we only bolted the section that had no horizontal or even semi-horizontal holds, then finished the route on lead. 

If you haven't seen it, you can find it discussed here: http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=1537.msg16800#msg16800

If you'd like to discuss it privately, I'd welcome it.  Just message me.

[waldo]

BIg dumb animals lurking around the monolith

 This event was two weeks ago. Not sure what their progress is on that route at that point. Any advice? I'm sure there are some other points I missed about this event, I will let mittens chime in.

I suggest calling the cops the next time anyone sees these guys around.  A $500 federal citation should prove adventure enough for them.

[F4?]

I'll vouch for Karl.

He's a great guy and has done a great job on new routes. Gorillas in the Moss is a great example for one of a route that I believe that went ground up?

[cobbledik]

I have no words...

A product of climbing focusing on ability over history. A whole generation that stands on the shoulders of those who came before, never looking down, only grinding their feet back and forth.

What's strange about this story is that the desire for "adventure" usually comes with a desire for history imo. Afterall, it's the history that leads us to where the adventure is.

It would seem that these guys know a little something since the most obvious no-nothing meathead move would be to rap bolt since that's all you'd understand from watching videos. To attempt to "set" (sorry brad) a route via aid and hooks is not the most intuitive thing for someone with no background in the lore of the activity. I wonder where they got the idea in the first place?

Ok, I guess I did have words...

[karl]

I'll vouch for Karl.

He's a great guy and has done a great job on new routes. Gorillas in the Moss is a great example for one of a route that I believe that went ground up?

Thanks... and it did.   It even involved dangerous tricks like free climbing past two potential bolt placements just to find hookable rock that would allow me to place the lower potential bolt.

[MUCCI]

Karl,
I know we have not met.  Nothing I say is personal, rather an opinion from someone who enjoys pinnacles on all facets.  I harbor no ill will toward you or anyone, and hope some day to meet you in person. 

This is why your route was used as an example.

At your level, with pre-inspection, and the history of hard routes you have put up, you chose to ignore the signs of that upper face in regards to the improbablility of hooking from below.

Sugar coating your efforts to Ground up the route does not make the rap bolts you placed "Okay".

Your team made a decision that ignored a long standing agreement (gentlemans honor). 

Finally, you opted not to place a bolt ladder due to the style implecations, and the # of holes you think it would have taken. 
Your team has now set a new standard, if you can't finish it, come in from the top no matter the grade to avoid bolt ladders. 

[MUCCI]

I will never clilmb that route, or any other 11's,12's 13's.

Now, that the bolt ladder crew is in, when they can't finish thier route, they can do what your team did.  When opposition for the  "Outsiders" starts, they can use the 14 year pinnacles veteran's decision to rap bolt as an example of why it's "Okay".   Preserving the rock is #1 right?


I applaud most efforts for New routing, but when the wool is being pulled over ones eyes in the name of a route that has only a few suitors, it is a bit sad.  Call it what it is karl, top down.

For the record, I have no problem with anybody drilling a ladder, I agree that the monolith is not the place.  I hope that the near future does not bring more rap bolters, however at this rate i expect more and more of this crap to make it's way to the pinns.


This is just an opinion, and from an average joe climber.  I make up the majority of climbers, this is MY voice.  No hard feelings here, just a timely topic on a subject that will only get worse.

Best Regard,

Josh

[MUCCI]

Adam and Mark?

Mudncrud getting trolled....Classic.