Author Topic: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith  (Read 45107 times)

mungeclimber

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2012, 05:46:49 PM »
^^^ right


modified ground up


but what is modified top down?  Doesn't seem like there can be a thing. One bit of language is in service of a particular view and approach, the other in the opposing direction.

On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

MUCCI

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2012, 10:24:45 AM »
Illegal? of course not, this isn't RR.

Ground up- Onsight?  No.

The Style points start diving as you move further from the above term.

As a climber, revealing the style of ascent is paramount to maintaining the "Honor system".

Somewhere along the line terms like onsight, and rap bolt began to take on new definitions. 

The water got cloudy, but the fisherman are still there selling the days catch.


Atomizer

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2012, 07:44:40 AM »
John and I had a chance to check out the route in question yesterday. The bolt count stays at one. I guess our conversation may have had an impact on those animals.

It was a great day for us at the Pinns. John's 29th birthday was a worthy way to get back into the peacful Friday energy at the Pinns. We got 20 stars and had one of those days that reaffirms my love for the place, climbing, partnerships in climbing, and life in general. Plus the new trailwork at the monolith is really cool.

John is going to be an incredible climber and already is a very talented natural climber. He has only been at it year and is heading down the right trajectory so far. A few weeks ago he almost onsighted Future Shock on TR, but forgot to unclip the last bolt and ended up climbing past it and took a lead fall on TR. He has incredible raw talent for technical Pinns climbing, he just needs to work out the technical safety side of things. It has been cool showing this guy all the classics. Yesterday he got feed the beast, so I put him on Cosmos, which he onsighted. He inspired me to try Pweeter, which a I barely made it through. We had some big adult beverages to celebrate then ended up doing a sloppy ascent of Portent. What a great route! It felt like a highway after all the other stuff we did. Look for John he is a wonderfully nice guy. It really pays to hang around good people.

mynameismud

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2012, 10:46:55 PM »
sounds like an incredible day.  Glad that anchor is gone.  Good to hear that is another stoked Master of Mud in the works.

The weather was perfect down there.  We started the day with a 20 mile MTB ride at Coe then drove to the Pins and got that at Noon.  Fun climbing.  Made me wonder why I haven't been getting down there more often.
Here's to sweat in your eye

mungeclimber

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2012, 08:19:59 PM »
The "bolt" count on the route is actually two, but only the second one has a hanger. It is bright and shiny and should be painted.

In looking at it, I'm not sure how you would get a top rope on there to see whether or not a strong young gun might be able to do it. So I think it might go free eventually, just at an extremely high level. It definitely seems like a bolt ladder so far though, and again, probably a poor choice of locations. But other routes have been done with heavy aid, then free'd later.

I just hope the guys that started on it, don't read all this, and assume that we're all Tom Higgins tough and can stance way out on R territory at a hard level, and then consequently give up ground up style because we're getting all holier than thou. I'll be the first to out my climbing partner... the rest of us resort to rope trickery,, bounce testing from the ground, freeing moves, aid to establish bolts, then hooking and other non sense, then work thru it, then do the next one, etc... I say keep up the ground up effort, give a shout, we'll get you on some good stuff to establish some other free climbs!

Hanging the guilty...



:)
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

kylequeener

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2012, 11:09:45 AM »
Warning: Grammatical errors, severe ranting and offensive language.

I'm going to attempt to shift this topic into the very distant future. The future where many of the original Pinnacles FA'ers and long time ethic supporters are..... DEAD. Yes, D-E-A-D dead. Dead from old age, from natural causes with family and loved ones abound, of course. I don't meant to speak out horrific accidents or untimely deaths but aim to mention the one guarantee in life, death. Most of the contributors here will most likely die well before me (I hope). So, when you are all gone what is going to stop me form rapping in on the backside of the monolith and rap bolting the two free standing projects and fuck it, while I'm there I'll go ahead and add some bolts all around just in case something might be climbable just to the left... or right... or right of the one to the left (yeah, I might bolt that line right of the one on the left twice). Ahh screw it, I just grid bolt every six feet apart. And Yes.... I'm leaving fixed draws... everywhere.

What are you going to do about it guys? This fringe activity isn't all the fringe anymore. So many people are starting in the gyms with no education. Believe me, I know. I work at one. So here I am and I feel like a liaison between two generations or climbers and their ethics. I started climbing just shy of the commercial boom of climbing gyms, but I'm still only 24 and I want to put up routes. Easy routes, hard routes. I'd love to bolt a 5.14 project for myself at Pinnacles. But the next generation is huge and vast and shit guys.... I can't manage to teach everyone the bold ethics at Pinns that I stick with. No matter how hard I try. And I try hard. But even at such a small gym I can't get them all to understand.

So.... really... what's so bad about a route like West of the Sun with a few bolts added on rap? I'm psyched about it. That was a huge effort and it just didn't pan out. But a valiant effort was made to hold the ethics as true as possible. I'm psyched for the FA'ers getting after it on West of the Sun. You guys made a great effort and tried to get it done within the "permitted style". But when that was not possible you made the decision to polish off the route in the best style it could be done in and now there is another route for the next generation to climb on. Which just saying... the next gen would have rap bolted that shit. And the one to left. And the one to the right. And the one to right of the one on the left. And don't forget about the perma-draws.

kylequeener

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2012, 11:56:10 AM »
If anyone would like my above post removed, because Land Managers likes to check in on things, I'll gladly take it away if there is a history of anything like that going on.

It might sound pretty horrible if interpreted wrong.

mungeclimber

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2012, 12:01:42 PM »
Quote
the next gen would have rap bolted that shit.

the future remains open
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

mynameismud

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2012, 12:09:12 PM »
I will give it a go just cuz I ran out of tree stumps to argue with.

1. disappointed yet again
2. I keep trying
3. We are going to hold you and yours to sending that shit free in good style before we go.  We may all be old and crusty but collectively we can kick your ass.  So get to gettin.
4. The fringe is a mental state more than anything else.  You want to be fringe buck the norm, do it with style instead of the easy way.
5. Not much really.  Did he paint the hangers?
6. Please do, I need to update my rack.

Rap bolting is one thing.  Style is yet another.  You want to be cutting edge and make a statement.  Then do so.  I realize there are limits to setting hard routes at the Pins at the upper ratings but it can still be done without doing it purely by rap.  What says more a 12d/13a ground up or a rap bolted 13d?  Right now West of the Sun is the standard.  Are you saying that is as far as it can be pushed?   I have a difficult time accepting that.  Karl is very good but I think the day will come when someone will push that standard further.

Hopefully see you this weekend.
 
I don't meant to speak out horrific accidents or untimely deaths

Most of the contributors here will most likely die well before me (I hope).

So, when you are all gone what is going to stop me form rapping in on the backside of the monolith and rap bolting the two free standing projects

This fringe activity isn't all the fringe anymore.

So.... really... what's so bad about a route like West of the Sun with a few bolts added on rap?

And don't forget about the perma-draws.
Here's to sweat in your eye

mynameismud

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2012, 12:11:55 PM »
It was closed do to Raptor nesting.

the future remains open
Here's to sweat in your eye

kylequeener

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2012, 12:43:55 PM »
Right now West of the Sun is the standard.  Are you saying that is as far as it can be pushed?   I have a difficult time accepting that.  Karl is very good but I think the day will come when someone will push that standard further.

Hopefully see you this weekend.
 

I'm not saying West of the Sun cannot be as far as ground up can be pushed. That should be made completely clear.

The topic should have been stated: If every proponent of ground up style is deceased before these routes are completed in permitted style then what actions are to be taken by the proponents before the proponents become deceased?

Remember, in this scenario you are no longer around to pass down your knowledge and ideals of climbing. So between that day and now, what are you going to propose is done to keep the open future narrowed to strict ground up ethics?

And I do hope I see you and anyone else this coming week/weekend. I plan to get pumped beyond reason at the Monolith and head back out to sit below Tuff talking myself into seeing what's up there on Friday.

mynameismud

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #71 on: April 16, 2012, 02:21:46 PM »
I see.  Well all I can say is, the one constant is change.  Hopefully it is something that is handed down from generation to generation.  No way to really know, all we can do is hope.

So, when are you sending those routes on the back side of the Monolith?

Don't make me get out of my bark'o lounger.
 ;)
Here's to sweat in your eye

mungeclimber

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2012, 02:44:41 PM »
Quote
what are you going to propose is done to keep the open future narrowed to strict ground up ethics?

Roger that. I see what you're saying.

I'm going to keep on keeping on with ground up shenanigans and having fun at the same time!  and keep the dialogue going on esteemed websites such as mudncrud.com.

On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

cobbledik

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2012, 02:58:06 PM »
Never consider one generation to be the one the "holds" onto style and knowledge and ethics; responsible for enforcement until they finally "give" to the next generation to take over their role. Even the word "generation" should be in parenthesis.

Change is fast and slow, back and forth. Old timers who "look to the future" new timers that want to keep a thread connected to the past. There will always be people on every side, the only thing that truly matters is which point of view has the audacity to act.

Ethics and style permeate places just as much as they do generations, culture, etc. the Pinnacles has a feel to it. Consider where that came from. It didn't come from the people that work to continue it to this day, it came from further back, from people where some are even D E A D now. The few that do stand up, come from that thread and "feel" that's been developed over time on the wall, in coffeeshops, online, etc. You can see a wave of new climbers coming, the reality is that a wave CAN (and always has been) be moved by a small few. Take the "apes" in this thread, people everywhere while they're bolting, but the ones that stop AND ACT, talk to them about how and why and why not and so forth and so on. Walk away and later, there's a bolt or two, but nothing to the top and nothing since (I think). Think there'd be more bolts with the person that stops and acts was supportive of the actions? Damn right. With people telling me I'm right, I've done some stupid, crazy, insane, amazing, right, wrong things. With people telling me I'm wrong, I've been more conservative; I've stopped, gathered more info, "felt" the area more and made better choices.

This is why Ethics and Style are so interesting, because they transcend individuals and arise from community, something so ethereal that when you trace it back to its source, it gets muddy at best. Consider though, we are part of a mentored sport. Everyone that survives links back to the past; some link back early, others much later. That past though keeps changing as well, my generation links to the one before, depending upon their link to the one before to keep the thread going, next generations links back to mine, everything a game of telephone receiving misunderstood words that have to be reinterpreted based upon new context and on and on and on. Purity is a good goal, but it's a fools errand to become obsessed.

Things will be fine. Change the path of the river as much as your single body can. After all, we do not act because of our desired result in the future, we act because of our perceived understanding of what has happened in the past.

mynameismud

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2012, 03:19:11 PM »
Well said
Here's to sweat in your eye

Brad Young

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2012, 03:26:37 PM »

...Things will be fine. Change the path of the river as much as your single body can....


Especially well said.

JC w KC redux

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2012, 07:04:47 PM »

3. We are going to hold you and yours to sending that shit free in good style before we go.  We may all be old and crusty but collectively we can kick your ass.  So get to gettin.
 

My money is on mud...

i was taught to respect my elders and even though at 24 i thought i knew it all i know better now.

with 800+ routes in the monument i find it better to just enjoy climbing and soak up what is already there...
One wheel shy of "normal"

kylequeener

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2012, 08:23:26 PM »
Never consider one generation to be the one the "holds" onto style and knowledge and ethics; responsible for enforcement until they finally "give" to the next generation to take over their role. Even the word "generation" should be in parenthesis.

Change is fast and slow, back and forth. Old timers who "look to the future" new timers that want to keep a thread connected to the past. There will always be people on every side, the only thing that truly matters is which point of view has the audacity to act.

Ethics and style permeate places just as much as they do generations, culture, etc. the Pinnacles has a feel to it. Consider where that came from. It didn't come from the people that work to continue it to this day, it came from further back, from people where some are even D E A D now. The few that do stand up, come from that thread and "feel" that's been developed over time on the wall, in coffeeshops, online, etc. You can see a wave of new climbers coming, the reality is that a wave CAN (and always has been) be moved by a small few. Take the "apes" in this thread, people everywhere while they're bolting, but the ones that stop AND ACT, talk to them about how and why and why not and so forth and so on. Walk away and later, there's a bolt or two, but nothing to the top and nothing since (I think). Think there'd be more bolts with the person that stops and acts was supportive of the actions? Damn right. With people telling me I'm right, I've done some stupid, crazy, insane, amazing, right, wrong things. With people telling me I'm wrong, I've been more conservative; I've stopped, gathered more info, "felt" the area more and made better choices.

This is why Ethics and Style are so interesting, because they transcend individuals and arise from community, something so ethereal that when you trace it back to its source, it gets muddy at best. Consider though, we are part of a mentored sport. Everyone that survives links back to the past; some link back early, others much later. That past though keeps changing as well, my generation links to the one before, depending upon their link to the one before to keep the thread going, next generations links back to mine, everything a game of telephone receiving misunderstood words that have to be reinterpreted based upon new context and on and on and on. Purity is a good goal, but it's a fools errand to become obsessed.

Things will be fine. Change the path of the river as much as your single body can. After all, we do not act because of our desired result in the future, we act because of our perceived understanding of what has happened in the past.

Dude, so well said. That's what I was looking to read.

"Purity is a good goal, but it's a fools errand to become obsessed." Really well said.

As for ever getting on the routes on the backside of the Pinnacles... well... I've climbed every season in Pinnacles more than any other area since I first tied in. So as long as I keep that up... in about 5-10 years I might be ready to take on those routes if they still happen to be there unfinished. This is the first year I've felt okay about putting in a bolt anywhere at Pinns. I've climbed so much there and have really soaked up the history. Countless hours searching the guide book for FA dates and FA'ers. I can sometimes tell by the feel of the route who put it up. There is a really rad connection going on and all I can think of is that putting up new routes is truly an art form.

Anyways, everyone here has someway or another mentored me in my Pinnacles "career" and for that I'm thankful. The forum is a rad place to bring together so many different climbers who otherwise would never exchange glances let alone philosophize climbing ethics.

If anyone is still thinking I'm the guy who's going to rap bolt everything while no one is looking, well forget about it. That was just my best impression of a "Big Dumb Animal". I'm in no way big (5'11 & 135lbs) Dumb (I can reeds books) or an Animal (I'm pretty domesticated by my girlfriend). I'm the kinda guy who waits to try a route for five years just so I can onsight it. Hangd doggin is sin. Routes are drilled with cramped calves, tired shoulders and dirty faces. Otherwise the route remains without soul, IMO.



mynameismud

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2012, 08:35:57 PM »
again, well said.
Here's to sweat in your eye

JC w KC redux

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Re: "Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith
« Reply #79 on: April 16, 2012, 09:41:17 PM »

That was just my best impression of a "Big Dumb Animal".


well you ruined it for me dood - I was looking forward to Mud opening up a can of whoop-ass at the rendezvous.
so now end the suspense...is the KY in your handle for the state or the jelly?
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