"Big Dumb Animals" lurking at The Monolith

[F4?]

Mudncrud getting trolled....Classic.

Yah think??

[mungeclimber]

Lol, mucci, you are a time place manner guy, but just so long as it is ground up?

Sounds like you're more concerned for top down approach precedent than ground up?

Cheers buddy

[F4?]

So my next route with be top down.... 

[MUCCI]

 Sounds like you're more concerned for top down approach precedent than ground up
I don't think there should be ANY concern for the top down approach at pinns.

Now there is.

This falls intimately close to drilling on others routes.  Both have shown thier faces as of late.

[F4?]

Have you guys ever done top down? It's still not so easy.

Try it....yah can't knock it until you've tried it 

[MudMittens]

This is not a troll....I have a lot to say about this... that'll come later along with photos and videos of those that Adam likens to "big dumb animals" (a title that I'm not inclined to disagree with). Until then, evidence of this can be found on the Monolith for all who care to look.

[mungeclimber]

Have you guys ever done top down? It's still not so easy.

Try it....yah can't knock it until you've tried it 

actually you can, with quite a bit of authority.  Actions speaking louder than words, as it were.

[Atomizer]

First, of all I would love to point out that this thread is not a troll.

I would like to clarify where the route is that is being questioned. They are starting on the Bridwell Bolts at the far right edge just left of the the big overhang underneath Tailspin. When I was 15 or 16 years old Sharma and I started to drill a bolt in almost the exact same location, then we thought otherwise. We decide to rap in and check the questionable rock near the top, which is just left of where Tailspin now finishes. We were turned off by the rock quality in that area and left the first bolt unfinished, which was only drilled maybe a 1/4 inch deep. On subsequent looks at that piece of rock I could even see where the hole was started.

We instead turned our efforts to the spot below Foreplay. We found the one bolt and two chipped and glued holds allready in place with no idea of the origin and decided to continue up. We laboriously hand placed three 1/2 bolts (that's all Bugaboo had in stock the day before) two on lead one on rap and then determined it was likely 5.15. For some reason we pulled the shafts out and left it for dead. We called the boondoogle, Foulplay as it would have been a direct start to Foreplay, and it had those chipped holds. I'm not so proud of that effort, but we were very young and very dumb. But at least one of us could and would climb 5.15, and we attempted good style. I don't think we knew of the word "ethics" yet.

Eventhough we may have acted inappropriately then, I see this current event as a much different and very questionable. I believe these guys are creating scars that in their minds are approriate to their goals of adventure, but inappropriate to us and the future of free-climbing at pinancles. But how do we judge that this is inappropriate? Ethics are culturally defined and these guys are from a different culture and just don't understand our culture. But when we questioned where they were from, to get an idea of their background, they wouldn't answer. Their desire for adventure seems to lead these guys into just putting bolts in without concern for where a free route would actually go. I told them that the free line would definitely go a different direction then they intended and that the rock would likely not cooperate with their intentions. Which I know from having looked at it with 5.14 climbers and having rapped it.

We obviously are left to self regulate, but what actions do we take? Look at Karl as an example. I believe Karl is helping define the new way of Pinnacles routing. He is taking groundup bolting on lead to the maximum. And has ran into the problem of its just too hard to get hooks on at certain point. His thought process is great in my mind. Him and Derek took "West of the Sun" to the edge of impossible and has justified putting in a few bolts on rap, because the route is amazing! I think that route could be the greatest addition to Pinnacles climbing since the 1900's. I have no problem with their style on that route, because many people are thankful for their vision, and problem solving when they couldn't finish it without modifying that style. To me that is a much better decision then leaving another unfinished route on the monolith. And they caused the least amount of impact to the rock by doing so. I'm not saying that Rap bolting is OK but, they created a great finished product. Sure you could go to China to get your product built quicker, but with the drawback of potentially inferior quality, this feels like it is made in America with a few parts from China.

I have friend who will remain anonymous in this post, that I looked at the current route in question with last spring. He would not have a problem rap bolting it but doesn't even want to put the effort into hand drilling, so he contemplated buying a Power Drill for this route. He is among a small group who would love to have a 5.14 at Pinnacles to work on. I think the big question here is how do you put up an ethically conscious 5.14 at Pinnacles, without killing yourself? Better get ready folks, the Post-Modern age has reached the pinnacles.

[Atomizer]

If these guys do succeed at putting this route in and it does happen to have bolts in the right locations. I think I would be stoked to climb it, but should I feel bad that I am climbing a route that was put up in bad style?  Does that mean I am supporting that style?

[cobbledik]

I think I would be stoked to climb it, but should I feel bad that I am climbing a route that was put up in bad style? I'm therefore supporting that style?

This sounds like the response to much of the justification for "Straight Up" being a route that many people are enjoying. (I'm thinking of Gavin's statements which weren't themselves a justification of the route but an observation that supported the justification of others.)

In the evolution of cultural perspectives on what is acceptable, it would seem that one cannot discount the subconscious aspect of the act of participating in a route (pre or post) being an acceptance of that route's lineage. As more and more people climb Straight Up, they are internalizing an unspoken image of bolts in the middle of another route. This then becomes part of the new personal creation of history and thus an individualized perspective of a valid way forward.

Individual history when clashing with a longer social history requires the individual to either claim their mistake or claim a right to change the path of history. Human nature will oft choose the former over the latter, both consciously and subconsciously.

Now that I think about it, the same sort of thing is done in guidebooks as well with some authors refusing to add info about chipped/etc routes due to the addition of acceptability by being in an "official" source like a guidebook. The same account of how the routes that exist and the attention paid to them last longer than the arguments and justifications that swirl around them for the lifespan of the individuals that hold them.

/thread drift

[F4?]

Again, if Folks want to open the doors on hard climbs they neeed to take on Great Spectacular. The bolts are in and awaiting to be clipped.

[JC w KC redux]

although i may not get a chance to establish a new line, you can count on us to practice good ethics and style. we will also act as stewards of Pinnacles whenever the occasion arises.

[Atomizer]

The Great Spectacular? What side of the Monolith is that on? Yeah that looks cool but isn't it closed during the prime season?

This event has provided me a range of emotions and thoughts over the last few weeks. Was confronting them the right course of action? Are we Faggots? Was I acting like a park ranger when I no longer am? and do we have any place telling others what to do? The thoughts posted here have helped reinforce that at a minimum it was right to inform them of the ethical standpoint of the locals. But how much further should we go. I think the five-piece bolt request was also not over the line. But I don't want to start a war, it's everyones park.

[cobbledik]

So were they placing stud or 5-piece bolts?

if they were placing stud bolts, did they know how they were going to "remove" them later?

[Atomizer]

Their first bolt was a five-piece, and we advised that it would be easier to remove them latter with some simple tools. Hopefully they don't start to place studs just to piss us off.

If anybody goes over there this week an update would be appreciated. I will not be around the Pinns this weekend.

[F4?]

Yes, Great Sp is closed. but it opens in July or August...perfect weather for it since it's in the shade (I think(.

[MUCCI]

Bam!  Right there Adam.

If they were rap bolting it, the route would be equipped by now.

BUT they chose Ground up, and thus have offered a window of time to hear pleads from sane individuals who don't want the monolith destroyed with holes.  BEFORE the route gets a dozen holes.  Proof is in the conversation you had face to face with the guy still in slings.

At this rate, they will never finish that route from the ground, they will need to rap bolt.
Conundrum?  Yes.  They may just abandon it.

Obviously the areas "Ethic/style" in pinns has been heard.  These guys DID NOT start at the top.  So those who spend the  most time climbing there, rebolting, and picking up trash have had their wishes heard.

Why throw a wrench in by contemplating rap bolting instead?  Routes would take HOURS not days to equip.
Not to mention, How sustainable is a 5.14 route at pinns?  How many 5.14's do climbers on the upper scale need.  Why is the monolith the only place where the hard shit is?

Tons of places, with a bit of an approach could yeild 5.14 at pinns.  Problem is, it is all just to feed the GYM.

Too sad.

[Atomizer]

Mucci, I think climbers have just as much right to put in a 5.14 as a 5.9 at Pinnacles. All grades are relavant to the varied levels of rock climbers.  But the reality is that the only piece of rock that seems viable for a 5.14 at the pinns is the Monolith, due to the small holds that are necessary and the friable nature of pinnacles rock. One of the reasons this lights a fire under my ass is that this is a potentially amazing line.

Furthermore I can't say that these guys are using this to serve the gym. It would be an improper assumption to say that they even climb at a gym or have ever been in one, even though it is likely that they have been in gyms.

And set the record straight because it doesn't seem clear, I don't support rap bolting or bolt ladders.

[MUCCI]

I believe Karl is helping define the new way of Pinnacles routing

At what level are those tactics acceptable?  5.13 and up?



 I'm not saying that Rap bolting is OK but, they created a great finished product

That's what it's all about.

Wait until the 5.14 territory you guys frequent gets a "Bad finished Product"  from a team that put even less time in than karl, and so on ......
 I think the big question here is how do you put up an ethically conscious 5.14 at Pinnacles, without killing yourself
Ask Karl.

I commend karl for puttin his work out on the table, I am sure he did a masterfull job on the west route, as I have heard he did on other high end routes.  Problem I have is that tactic was justified to the masses for the end product. The same way the next route placed on rappel will be pimped to us.

Edit:
I appreciate you (adam) for giving your thought on the line.  as one who frequents that level, I have the utmost respect.  I know you have an eye on the park, and understand that rap bolting is not your fortay as much as bolt ladders are mine (at pinns).

Thanks for your words.  

[mungeclimber]

I have no problem with their style on that route... To me that is a much better decision then leaving another unfinished route on the monolith. ... I'm not saying that Rap bolting is OK but, they created a great finished product.

But in a way, you are saying it's ok by stating that you have no problem with their style.

With each additional rap placed bolt, the ever increasing "consensus" bends toward annexation of ethical approaches.


I'm torn by the idea of steep and hard and the perceived need to rap bolt the "hard" lines, but not the easy lines. Definitely a post modern conundrum.


Perhaps that's why I don't dislike bolt ladders, or better yet, bolt and hook ladders.  The FA and FFA are ethically isolated that way. The ladder is still ground up.  It places enough protection to make the steep and hard stuff relatively safe. But the FFA has the opportunity to take those falls.  The only bummer is the clips might suck as an "end product" much like Mucci said in that last post. But hook and stance often has the same effect too at those grades.