Author Topic: Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook  (Read 764153 times)

Brad Young

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #220 on: November 23, 2021, 09:57:10 AM »
^^^

Well we love you. Keep trying anything you can. I've got almost all my stuff saved anyway (including PCT trip reports).

Brad Young

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #221 on: November 23, 2021, 09:58:35 AM »
I tried again with correction number 45, but no, it won't post.

So here it is:

EDIT: Wow... it won't post the whole thing. I'll try to do it in pieces?

SECOND EDIT: OK, I've narrowed down the issue - it's apostrophes. When I attempt to copy/paste from my text document, the text copies but then will not appear at and after the first apostrophe. And apostrophes are the issue with the other text documents too. I'll try the whole post in a separate box, but will modify it so that there are no apostrophes (modifying the quoted sections that way too).



45. Change, page 231 (route 576, Swept Away): About a year ago J. C. from this site called an issue with this route to my attention. As shown on the topo and, to my knowledge, as climbed by climbers, the route's second of only three protection points was a small tree growing from the rock (the tree is about 2 1/2 inches in diameter at its base). In John's view, the rock in which the tree was growing looked unstable; his concern was that any fall onto the tree (if tied off) would blow the supporting rock and the tree clear out.

John knows Pinnacles and knows Pinnacles rock. I believed him. So I reached out to one of the first ascent party, Tim Kemple. Here's the relevant part of our email exchange on this issue:

ONE (me to Tim): "Hi Tim,

I looked you up to raise an issue about the current status of your Pinnacles route Swept Away. I suspect that you remember the route - the 5.9 on The Smokestack. You might also remember that the route used a tied off tree as a protection point about halfway up (at least everything I

Brad Young

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #222 on: November 23, 2021, 10:07:46 AM »
45. Change, page 231 (route 576, Swept Away): About a year ago J. C. from this site called an issue with this route to my attention. As shown on the topo and, to my knowledge, as climbed by climbers, the route's second of only three protection points was a small tree growing from the rock (the tree is about 2 1/2 inches in diameter at its base). In John's view, the rock in which the tree was growing looked unstable; his concern was that any fall onto the tree (if tied off) would blow the supporting rock and the tree clear out.

John knows Pinnacles and knows Pinnacles rock. I believed him. So I reached out to one of the first ascent party, Tim Kemple. Here's the relevant part of our email exchange on this issue:

ONE (me to Tim): "Hi Tim,

I looked you up to raise an issue about the current status of your Pinnacles route Swept Away. I suspect that you remember the route - the 5.9 on The Smokestack. You might also remember that the route used a tied off tree as a protection point about halfway up (at least everything I have ever heard about the route indicates a tied off tree, and it would be ground fall without it).

The issue is that that tree, and the flake it is growing behind, seem to be failing. A friend of mine recently replaced one of the bolts on the route (he has replaced literally hundreds of Pinnacles bolts with modern stainless steel hardware and is very, very  skilled at it). He inspected the tree while he was doing this and was aghast (he is retired now, but was a geology professor and used a bunch of geology terms to describe his worries - the phrases were not all that clear to me, but the worries about the tree and the flake were).

No doubt that climbers using the tree has not helped its health, but I doubt that that has had that much of an impact. The situation has simply changed over the what, 37 years since the route was established, and the tree probably is not good pro any more.

Rather than rate the route

Brad Young

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #223 on: November 23, 2021, 10:27:53 AM »
...X in the new book, it seems like a bolt should be added as a protection point near the tree. But I would not even consider doing that without the express permission of a first ascentionist.

Do you still live close enough to Pinns that you could go look at the situation? Are you still climbing? Do you still live close enough to Pinns that you could go look at the situation? Are you still climbing? Any thoughts on what you would like to see done if you are not around yourself? It is a fine route and I for one would like to see it continue without the dreaded X rating."


TWO (Tim to me): "Thanks again for reaching out. I am currently living in Salt Lake, still climbing, and still putting in new routes.

That lead was one of the scariest of my life. I do not know how I managed to get both hands free to drill. I did not use hooks, did not know about that technique. Did not know much about anything!!
We were operating in a vacuum.

That said, I like my routes to be safe. No point in excessive risk. Especially with that rock quality. So feel free to add bolts to any of my routes to make them safe."


THREE (me back to Tim): "Tim, thanks for being open minded about this. I will pass on your thoughts to John and he and I will talk more about what to do. As an example, it is probably critical that any bolt added to replace the tree as a protection point be added low enough that a climber clips it before they might grab the tree as a handhold (so that if the tree then fails, well you get the picture).

I will report back to you, hopefully with a photo or two if/when John does add a bolt. I suppose I should also post to Mountain Project so that readers there do not get an idea that the bolt was just added randomly."


On November 21, 2021 I finally got to Chimney Sweep with Jenn Wang.

I inspected Swept Away from the ground before we climbed. My first observation was that the tree is now dead. Similar species of oak nearby all have green leaves and photos of this tree on the route have green leaves in shots Noal posted to Mountain Project some years ago. There is no green at all on the tree now. All the leaves are brown.

So this issue alone (the tree now dead) would probably compel some action.

But what about the issue John raised, the tree's lack of support in the rock? Well, from the ground there's an obvious fracture running straight down from the base of the tree. That's worrisome. And upon inspection from above and actually at the tree? Holy wow! Yeah, John, I see what you mean. My closer inspection showed fractures to both sides of the tree horizontally and, yes, a serious fracture below it. And rock that was being pried out from the main face. Fists thumping on the rock near the tree sounded like styrofoam.

My estimate is that, even if the tree were alive, a fall onto it (if tied off as protection) would more likely than not dislodge the large flakes it was growing behind and either dislodge the tree or even break it off. If this occurred, a climber would likely continue another 35 feet and hit the ground. The falling flakes could badly injure a belayer.

As John suspected, this tree has become an illusory protection point. Maybe it was adequate once (I tied it off when I led the route in the early '90s), but it no longer is.

With Jenn's help I looked at the possibility of adding a bolt to the route as close to the tree as possible (with Tim's express permission).
The idea being that, with the tree failing, the bolt will be actual, not illusory protection at the same place on the climb.

Finding a place to drill proved challenging. Tapping in the area with a hammer was terrifying. If the rock around the tree had looked loose, the tapping made it all seem much looser, much worse. "Thunk" is not a good sound when looking for decent rock in which to drill.

After some work, I finally found good rock three feet to the right from the base of the tree and two inches higher in elevation. I placed a bolt. I think this new bolt will be exactly as clipable for a leader as the tree was and it's within two inches of the tree's base in height. But the rock left no choice regardless - the bolt had to go in good enough rock so that it too wasn't going to be an illusion.

I got it done, a 3/8 inch stainless bolt that I would give a "6" in quality (on a scale where a 1 will barely stay in the rock and a 10 is the best rock possible). I'm satisfied and would gladly use it for protection if I were ever to lead the route again.

Brad Young

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #224 on: November 23, 2021, 10:39:23 AM »
Holy f$%ing shit, that was like pulling teeth out of a condor.

Both apostrophes and quotes around short bits of text are the problem. When posting new material, the site just stops it from posting at and then after either one.

It took me nearly an hour to remove all of the offending marks and get that to post, and it's not even in the main text of the corrections.

We may be at a place where the site is effectively dead to new stuff?


Brad Young

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #225 on: November 23, 2021, 10:47:21 AM »
^^^

And yet in post 222 above some apostrophes did import. WTF?

mudworm

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #226 on: November 23, 2021, 11:19:58 AM »
WTF?

It's usually those moments that make root causing tricky.

I think at this point, the best alternative for you is to document the list in a nice Google document, which you can edit any time, freely, and with beautiful format. Get the sharable link (with view permission only) to that document, and just supply the link in the sticky. I hear Google might have a few engineers who work for them so they might keep the boat afloat longer.
Inch by inch, I will get there.

Brad Young

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #227 on: November 23, 2021, 11:27:11 AM »
^^^

That's ridiculous and I'm deeply hurt that you would even suggest "change." Bah f$%king humbug.

I'll back everything up and be prepared to post it to something else in the future (not Mountain Project though). And then wait until the ship actually sinks before I abandon it.

And I will beseech both you and what's his name for action while it lasts. Like I said, we love you. And we'll love you even more if you at least try to keep it going  ;D

mungeclimber

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #228 on: November 23, 2021, 04:39:23 PM »
A link will get shared out faster than a fart leaks through lycra.

Maybe a separate couple of web pages using a content creation app from your host provider with an unshareable link?

This is also Robert's test post using an apostrophe.  <-- this posted fine. It's Word formatting for the apostrophes when you paste it in? Maybe use a text editor/notepad instead?

On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

Brad Young

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #229 on: November 23, 2021, 04:43:10 PM »

A link will get shared out faster than a fart leaks through lycra.

Maybe a separate couple of web pages using a content creation app from your host provider with an unshareable link?

This is also Robert's test post using an apostrophe.  <-- this posted fine. It's Word formatting for the apostrophes when you paste it in? Maybe use a text editor/notepad instead?


It is pasted in from Word, yes. All my documents start as Word docs (with Ellen, of course).

I can try first pasting it into Text Edit and then copying that. Any chance that the first copy/paste cycle would taint the second though?


clink

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #230 on: November 24, 2021, 06:02:51 AM »
Quote
I don't know much, but one thing I know is there are no site Gods, not here at least. Site janitors more likely, but a janitor will not be able to fix a crumbling pre-historic outhouse perched precariously on an unstable hill side. She's been shoving rocks under exposed posts here and there.

 Everything you all are posting is over my head, but this I get. Thanks Mudworm. Brad, a few perfect words??
Causing trouble when not climbing.

mynameismud

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #231 on: November 24, 2021, 06:07:20 AM »
MS products mess with everything.  I use Word every day and have for over 20 years now and it still drives me bonkers, but then I guess it doesn't take much to do that.
Here's to sweat in your eye

Brad Young

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #232 on: April 11, 2024, 04:38:34 PM »
It looks like the site is creaking again. I can't modify the initial post in this thread anymore. I don't know if this is a temporary glitch or if it will be the new normal.

So, correction number 46 will have to be a separate post. It's actually a change with a correction blended in:

46.  Three of the old guys on the old-guys’ trip led Bob Walton’s route Miss Piggy on Spike’s Peak yesterday. All three have over 50 years of climbing experience. All three liked the route, but thought that they would like it better if the first bolt wasn’t 30 or so feet up (the 2007 book says 20 feet, but that’s not right).

After the climbing day yesterday, Caleb and family were nice enough to host a barbecue at a property he has access to to four miles away from their house, on the Arroyo Seco River (an absolutely gorgeous riverside parking and barbecuing facility). Bob and his wife came over from King City. The three old guys talked to Bob about having just climbed Miss Piggy (Bob went to the High Peaks with us yesterday, but headed down early).

Bob’s comment was that “yeah, the first bolt was high because [he hadn’t been] able to stop and drill lower.” Bob suggested that a new, lower first bolt could (should) be added to the route.

When they all told me of this conversation, I told them that Joel and I would be in the High Peaks again today and that if Bob wanted me to we could add a new first bolt to his route. He wanted me to. So Miss Piggy now has four lead bolts. The new first bolt is between 12 and 15 feet off the ground and will be very helpful in preventing what could have been a long ground-fall (if a hold broke or someone screwed up).

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot that I'd had this same problem a few years ago. So this one is correction number 46.

waldo

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Re: Author's official corrections to the new guidebook
« Reply #233 on: April 14, 2024, 09:01:36 AM »

 
46.  Three of the old guys on the old-guys’ trip led Bob Walton’s route Miss Piggy on Spike’s Peak yesterday. All three have over 50 years of climbing experience. All three liked the route, but thought that they would like it better if the first bolt wasn’t 30 or so feet up (the 2007 book says 20 feet, but that’s not right).

After the climbing day yesterday, Caleb and family were nice enough to host a barbecue at a property he has access to to four miles away from their house, on the Arroyo Seco River (an absolutely gorgeous riverside parking and barbecuing facility). Bob and his wife came over from King City. The three old guys talked to Bob about having just climbed Miss Piggy (Bob went to the High Peaks with us yesterday, but headed down early).

Bob’s comment was that “yeah, the first bolt was high because [he hadn’t been] able to stop and drill lower.” Bob suggested that a new, lower first bolt could (should) be added to the route.

When they all told me of this conversation, I told them that Joel and I would be in the High Peaks again today and that if Bob wanted me to we could add a new first bolt to his route. He wanted me to. So Miss Piggy now has four lead bolts. The new first bolt is between 12 and 15 feet off the ground and will be very helpful in preventing what could have been a long ground-fall (if a hold broke or someone screwed up).

I thank Brad and Joel for placing the new bolt on Miss Piggy! Hey, maybe it gets a star now?