Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread

[JC w KC redux]

There is for sure a new bolt on top of the shepherd, a total of two now. It wasn't there last month. It is a couple feet climbers right(if you just climbed the reg route) of the older one. Its a plated steel with some hardware store quick link. The older one thats been there years has the Malaysian quick link on it. Is that Malaysian one fletchers?

Gotcha. I'll have to take a look. I thought the old bolt you mentioned might have been one that I missed. I only ever remembered seeing one bolt up there and it was beefy with a fat link. As you said, someone must have added one and the one you are calling old is the one I have always seen (last 5 years). The one I have always seen up there has a fat screwlink on it - maybe 1/2 inch instead of 3/8. I can understand someone wanting a 2 bolt anchor rather than a single, but if someone added a bolt up there to rappel from, it makes me fear for the future of Pinns. The walkoff is so mellow. You have peaked my curiosity.

[JC w KC redux]

There's no number on the end of the stud, but a little hollow dimple/hole. I should've taken a pic but I rarely bring a camera.

It's kind of a long shot since only some manufacturers put a letter on the stud end - Powers uses a stamped letter on their power bolts (wedges)

[Max]

The walkoff is so mellow.

I agree, its likely faster to walk off than deal with the hassle of rappelling

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

Clint Cummins, Dan Merrick(AKA Banquo), John Cook and I were out at Discovery Wall yesterday to test out some new tools for removing bolts, primarily wedge bolts and Rawl split shafts.

Dan made a couple of tools and I brought a couple of tools which Greg German(AKA Gregger Man) made.  We pulled and replaced 8 wedge bolts(some 30 years old!) and one Rawl split shaft.  Here are some photos to illustrate what we did.



Dan has been working hard to come up with a way to replace wedge bolts without using power tools.  The first step is to tap the bolt back into the hole. Next you try to spin the bolt in the hole to put a groove in the shaft of the bolt where the cone slides up.  If you can get a deep enough groove, when you try to pull out the bolt, the cone can't slide up the shaft so the pullout strength of the bolt is decreased to a force that allows removal without breaking it off in the hole.

We were able to remove all but one wedge bolt and then drill out the hole to 10mm from 3/8" and lengthened it an inch or so for the 3.5" SS Powers bolt to be inserted.  BTW, those of you who are still having spinning problems with 3/8" Powers bolts, it is a simple and easy fix to switch from 3/8" to 10mm bits.

Here's a photo of using a speed wrench to spin the bolt in the hole(after the nut and hanger have been removed) to create the critical groove.  There is an adapter at the end of the wrench which screws into the exposed stud.  Needless to say, for these tools to work properly, or at all for that matter, the threads on the end of the bolt have to be in pretty good shape.



Here's a photo of the cool tool that Dan made to pull the bolt.  It is a hydraulic pop rivet gun that can exert about 3300 pounds of force.  It only has a workable throw of about 3/4" so you need to insert spacers as the bolt comes out of the hole. Dan made a fitting which screws into the tool and also threads onto the end of the bolt stud.



Viola!



Here's a photo of the pulling tool that Greg German made.  Not as nice as Dan's tool, but it gets the job done.  It is seen here pulling out a 3/8" Rawl split shaft.  You screw the stud into one end of the tool and use a BFW to turn the big nut on the other end.



The obligatory before and after photos.

[Brad Young]

Bruce,

Just so I am clear, you four managed to reuse seven out of eight holes?

The rock on Discovery is harder than many other areas in the park, but even still, that is really, really impressive work.

About how long (if there's an average) to pull one of those bolts out?

[JC w KC redux]

Bruce,

Just so I am clear, you four managed to reuse seven out of eight holes?

The rock on Discovery is harder than many other areas in the park, but even still, that is really, really impressive work.

About how long (if there's an average) to pull one of those bolts out?

Brad,
If you see the bolt still in one piece, the hole was reused.
I only remember one bolt that broke off.
It is the spinning that is a royal pain.
Really slow and tedious by hand.
I can give you more details tomorrow.
The good news is we have a method for reusing holes.

[Brad Young]

...the good news is we have a method for reusing holes.

Very pleasing. I'd like to see it in action!

Remind me to ask you how long it takes per bolt and how much the gear weighs.

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

Brad,

the key is being able to thread the tools onto the bolt stud.  If the threads are bunged up then it's really not possible.  Secondly, it is critical that you be able to spin the bolt in the hole.  One bolt was "threadable", but we could not get it to spin.  Lastly, using some sort of abrasive compound(sandblasting powder or jeweler's paste in an aqueous solution) is critical in being able to more easily score the cone.

It probably takes 5-10 minutes of spinning to be able score the cone.  With the 3.5" wedge bolts we removed we had to drill about an extra inch for the 3.5" SS Powers.  If you trade off not having to drill the initial two inches and you get to re-use the hole, the 5-10 minutes of spinning doesn't seem so bad.

BTW, these techniques are coming from the guys in Colorado, mostly Greg German(AKA Gregger Man).  I have been working with Dan for the past 4-6 months to try and adapt them for non-power tools.  Luckily for all of us, not only is Dan a very sharp guy when it comes to designing tools, he is also very motivated to find a good solution!  We are very fortunate to have him in our area and on our team!

[Max]

very cool!

[JC w KC redux]

Fixe has introduced a new brand of hardware - the PLX series.

You can read about it here  http://www.fixeclimbing.com/public/FIXE-CLIMBING-EN-2016-17.pdf on page 22.

I received some of the new hangers with an order yesterday and was thrown by the magnetism - a bit stronger than the usual stainless products I receive from Fixe. I have learned over the last year that varying amounts of magnetism can occur in stainless steel - it is not an "acid test" to distinguish carbon steel from stainless steel. Luster is not reliable either. Like so many other things these days, we have to keep up with changes and be aware of any codes that manufacturers use to identify specific materials. Some manufacturers like Powers also use codes to help identify bolt length. I realize that many climbers will just clip and go but for those of us with a greater interest or an innate curiosity, it takes continuing education.   

[JC w KC redux]

Taking a closer look at the changes on the PLX hanger.
The 038 code (Fixe's code for SS) is on the back surface instead of the front.
You can still see the code by looking at the hanger from the side when it is installed.
The rating increased from 30KN to 40 KN.
They added an up arrow above the bolt hole.
They increased the height but decreased the diameter of the three little bumps that stick up on the back side around the bolt hole - designed to keep the hanger from spinning. They are taller and slightly smaller.
The letters PLX replace the previous INOX designation.

I got some of the long (12mm x 3"/ 75mm) Triplex bolts with my order - they are hefty hefty hefty and beautifully simplistic.

They were also a great deal!

[clink]

Tom had a suggestion of relocation of Ordeal's anchor to a better position.

[JC w KC redux]

Tom had a suggestion of relocation of Ordeal's anchor to a better position.

A better position meaning what?
That anchor has already been replaced.

[climberdude]

I just received some Fixe bolts and hangers and was wondering about the 40 kN marking on it since previous Fixe hangers I have purchased were marked 30 kN.  PLX is not a new "brand", but is rather a different type of stainless steel compared to the 304 and other specifications they used before.  I believe the PLX is either a duplex or super duplex stainless steel.  This is exciting because I have seen plenty of equipment that our company makes that are 304 and 316L stainless steel that has cracks and heavy corrosion after being in the field for only a few years (we make equipment used in oilfields where stress corrosion is a big issue).  The Fixe bolts are still either 304 or 316L, but I suspect the current good deals at Fixe are to purge current inventory so that PLX bolts can be be brought into stock (at least I hope this is the case).

Make sure you pay attention to the recommended hole depth for the Triplex bolts.  If you are hand drilling, this will not be a problem, but if you are using them in locations where a power drill can be used, it is easy to drill too deep unless you use a depth gauge.  If the hole is too deep, you cannot easy remove the bolt in case you want to remove it (these bolts are designed to be removable for replacement or inspection). 

[JC w KC redux]

I just received some Fixe bolts and hangers and was wondering about the 40 kN marking on it since previous Fixe hangers I have purchased were marked 30 kN.  PLX is not a new "brand", but is rather a different type of stainless steel compared to the 304 and other specifications they used before.  I believe the PLX is either a duplex or super duplex stainless steel.  This is exciting because I have seen plenty of equipment that our company makes that are 304 and 316L stainless steel that has cracks and heavy corrosion after being in the field for only a few years (we make equipment used in oilfields where stress corrosion is a big issue).  The Fixe bolts are still either 304 or 316L, but I suspect the current good deals at Fixe are to purge current inventory so that PLX bolts can be be brought into stock (at least I hope this is the case).

Make sure you pay attention to the recommended hole depth for the Triplex bolts.  If you are hand drilling, this will not be a problem, but if you are using them in locations where a power drill can be used, it is easy to drill too deep unless you use a depth gauge.  If the hole is too deep, you cannot easy remove the bolt in case you want to remove it (these bolts are designed to be removable for replacement or inspection).  

Geez - pardon my French - semantics - you may be as persnickety as Brad!
I was trying to use a word that clink could understand  
I changed it to composition and yes the bolts are still 304 stainless (according to the Fixe Hardware website) but there is nothing stamped on the bolts to designate that. They do have a marine grade wedge bolt (12x90mm) that is 316 but it's really pricey ($12.95). I have to wonder if the new PLX bolts will have an identifier.


Thanks for the rec on the triplex depth. An overdrilled hole means you could tap the bolt too far in (when disengaging for removal) to get a hold on it and pull it out after the sleeve is extracted.

[Brad Young]

...you may be as persnickety as Brad!  

Only if by "persnickety" you mean intelligent and detail oriented.

[climberdude]

JC, sorry to be as detail-oriented as Brad, but the bichromate steel is their less corrosion resistant (and less expensive) model that is designed for indoors and very dry locations compared to the PLX steel.

After seeing how quickly and cleanly four point SDS drills go into the rock compared to the standard two point SDS drills, I have been looking for the four point SDS drills.  Hilti sells an eight package of these drills, which I picked up at a local Hilti store, #2025905 for 3/8" x 4" (drilling depth) drills.  I look forward to trying them out.  Hilti did not stock the metric SDS drills at my local Hilti store, but you can order them on-line and have them delivered to the store for pick-up.

[JC w KC redux]

JC, sorry to be as detail-oriented as Brad, but the bichromate steel is their less corrosion resistant (and less expensive) model that is designed for indoors and very dry locations compared to the PLX steel.

Yes, I made a mistake. The catalog describes the bichromate version right after the PLX making it confusing for uneducated white trash idiots like me.
I was going to go rebolt today but I am going to stay home and eat worms instead.

[JC w KC redux]

After seeing how quickly and cleanly four point SDS drills go into the rock compared to the standard two point SDS drills, I have been looking for the four point SDS drills.  Hilti sells an eight package of these drills, which I picked up at a local Hilti store, #2025905 for 3/8" x 4" (drilling depth) drills.  I look forward to trying them out.  Hilti did not stock the metric SDS drills at my local Hilti store, but you can order them on-line and have them delivered to the store for pick-up.

I posted this on the Quest for Mud thread back in the summer. This bit cost me more than double what a regular bit does but I really like it. I use it in my Merrick holder and several people that tried it said they wanted to steal it. 

I love the Hilti stuff too - I have one of their regular bits that drills real nice.

Oh...and speaking of fatheads (should I cross post on that other thread?)..check out this new drill bit I tried yesterday.
It drills real nice. The Powers Fat Head design.
Just for fun I switched to my other drill after getting the hole started with this one and it immediately started binding.
Switched back and no more binding. One hole is not enough data but I'll speculate this sucker is going to help me place a lot of bolts faster and easier.

[mungeclimber]

JC, sorry to be as detail-oriented as Brad, but the bichromate steel is their less corrosion resistant (and less expensive) model that is designed for indoors and very dry locations compared to the PLX steel.

After seeing how quickly and cleanly four point SDS drills go into the rock compared to the standard two point SDS drills, I have been looking for the four point SDS drills.  Hilti sells an eight package of these drills, which I picked up at a local Hilti store, #2025905 for 3/8" x 4" (drilling depth) drills.  I look forward to trying them out.  Hilti did not stock the metric SDS drills at my local Hilti store, but you can order them on-line and have them delivered to the store for pick-up.

Mark,

have you tried the 4 point in granite? I've had a poor experience with a single attempt in granite. You may be looking at Pinns exclusively, just sharing my experience.