Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread

[mynameismud]

Hi, Bruce

I would like to take the time to give my thanks to your work.  Well actually the work of you, Clint and John.  I do not entirely understand it, but I do admire it.  I do not understand it because of the amount of time and effort that the three of you have put into replacing a large quantity of marginal bolts.  This is a selfless endeavor with not a lot of reward.  I think the quality of your work is quite high.  I just want to make sure that you all know that it is appreciated.  Nelkins and I talked about this for a bit Saturday while climbing.

I think perhaps what Adam was saying is part of the climbing experience in the past was clipping those historical time bombs.  It definitely made the routes more spicy than they actually were.  I always had the mindset that I was soloing because we never knew if the bolts were any good.  There is a part of me that misses this.  With that said, I am very thankful of the work the three of you are doing because if it is not done by you three it may never get done.  And, if a person is to clip a bolt it may as well be a good bolt plus there were routes that I had no desire to repeat, not that the route was that hard but because the route was just hard enough and the bolts questionable enough that I really did not want to roll the dice one more time on that route.  I think now climbers are more likely to adventure out and check out some of the outlying areas.  The fact that you guys are doing this in other climbing areas as well is just amazing.

In summary, I am really glad you guys are doing the work that you are doing because in the future I am not sure if anyone else will, and there are some cool routes that I appreciate having good bolts on.

Many Thanks,
mynameismud

[JC w KC redux]

Thanks for taking the time to write that mud.
It is a labor of love and my way of giving back to the Pinnacles and our great climbing community.
nelkins and clink have helped me a lot too - they deserve props as well as climberdude, Brad, Jim, mud, munge and anyone else that I may not have mentioned that has swung a hammer for any rebolting efforts throughout the years.

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

Mynameismud,

I think the crux of the issue is what you think of the quality of the bolts that were put in during the FA.  If you feel that the bolts people placed when they were putting up routes back in the day were good at the time they were placed then all we are doing is maintaining the 'good' nature of the bolts.  Future climbers should not have to deal with bad bolts because they have decayed over time.

If you feel that the bolts which were put in during the FA were crap and have always been crap then, yes, you have a valid argument that we are changing the nature of the climbs by replacing the crap with good bolts.

When Tom Higgins was doing the FFA of Resurrection Wall he grabbed the belay knob at the top of the 2nd pitch, but couldn't pull up resulting in a 30 foot fall on a 1/4" x1" Red Head bolt.  I doubt that, 38 years later, that bolt would have held that same fall.

[F4?]

Keep it up!

The new bolts are just what's needed to help get more traffic on the routes.

[JC w KC redux]

Mynameismud,

I think the crux of the issue is what you think of the quality of the bolts that were put in during the FA.  If you feel that the bolts people placed when they were putting up routes back in the day were good at the time they were placed then all we are doing is maintaining the 'good' nature of the bolts.  Future climbers should not have to deal with bad bolts because they have decayed over time.

If you feel that the bolts which were put in during the FA were crap and have always been crap then, yes, you have a valid argument that we are changing the nature of the climbs by replacing the crap with good bolts.

When Tom Higgins was doing the FFA of Resurrection Wall he grabbed the belay knob at the top of the 2nd pitch, but couldn't pull up resulting in a 30 foot fall on a 1/4" x1" Red Head bolt.  I doubt that, 38 years later, that bolt would have held that same fall.

I love the way you put things into perspective Bruce. Nicely said.

[waldo]

Bruce, I, too, appreciate and salute all you and Clint have done and continue to do. I have no doubt that your work has saved lives and will continue to do so for decades to come.

Here is an update on some of the rebolting Clint and I have been doing in the last several months.

Also, it appears that Jack Holmgren glued in a lot of the Star Dryvins which means that we have to chop out the old bolt and drill a new hole.  We hope to come back in the fall and do what we can.

I find this curious and I'll ask him about it. I began climbing with Jack after he put up the Nexus, Sexus, Plexus complex, but we went up there several times together. I recall replacing a 5/16's compression bolt he didn't like - who did? However, we used no glue then and never at all when we were climbing together.

[mungeclimber]

++ what mud said

[mynameismud]

Hi, Bruce

I think some of the original bolts were crap and some at the time of the FA were good to fairly good.  I did not mean what I said to have any negative connotation.  I think what you guys are doing is quite incredible.  The work you guys are doing only changes the nature of the routes due to the fact that they now actually have good quality bolts.  This is not a bad thing.  And, if it was not for you three it probably would never get done.  I would happily buy the three of you a beer or two at any time but Clint does not drink.

Here's to sweat in your eye
mud

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

Clint and I have been using 10mm drill bits during our rebolting for the past couple of trips.  It still takes some effort to pound the bolt into the hole, but not nearly as much as with a 3/8" bit which seems to be a very good thing. The bolts tighten up snugly. So far we have not had a single spinner.  Is anyone else using 10mm bits?  What's your experience?

[JC w KC redux]

Clint and I have been using 10mm drill bits during our rebolting for the past couple of trips.  It still takes some effort to pound the bolt into the hole, but not nearly as much as with a 3/8" bit which seems to be a very good thing. The bolts tighten up snugly. So far we have not had a single spinner.  Is anyone else using 10mm bits?  What's your experience?

I'm looking forward to changing over. I still have some new 3/8" bits and I have been doing fine with the bolts I have been placing (not that many lately). I would bet everyone else also has at least a few 3/8" bits that they want to use until worn out and then make the switch. I have just been using extra care driving the bolts and make sure they turn 3 to 4 turns as Powers recommends. I also watch for the little plastic washer to start squishing out as you taught me. 

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

A couple of sources for the bits are Fixe and Mountain Tools.  They definitely cost more than 3/8" bits, but that's what we get for not converting to the metric system:-)

[F4?]

Hey we saved them in WWII, you'd think they would accept our measurement system.

[JC w KC redux]

I placed 2 bolts today witha 3/8" bit and they both went in and tightened up real nice.
I then proceeded to get my bit hopelessly stuck in a new hole. At about 3/4 of the way in - it refused to turn and would not budge no matter what I did. I removed the holder and left the bit. I'll have to go back with vice grips to get it out - or I could leave it like the Sword in the Stone 

[mynameismud]

Doo Eeet.

It will be like a garage door handle but different.

[mungeclimber]

Doesn't that go in the trash thread?

Bummer, I've had one of those in granite. I'd be curious to see if the flange on the bit tip broke off in the hole.

[clink]

Bruce, what is the tip profile of the 10mm bits you are using and brand? Pics?

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

Bruce, what is the tip profile of the 10mm bits you are using and brand? Pics?

Bought from Fixe(Larry Arthur also sells these).  I am not sure what the brand is but it says Made in Germany so that means it is probably Bosch.

[clink]

 The earlier version (and still available) of carbide bits tips were this equal angle type.

 The latest type of 3/8s that i received from Fixe has a raised center and drills very efficiently. The flutes don't extend as far up the shaft as the previous model, requiring the bit to be pulled one or two times after they are buried.

  I was wondering if your 10 mm Fixe bit has a raised center?

[JC w KC redux]

clink,
Here is a photo showing 3 bits I am currently using. From left to right they are Hilti 3/8, Silverline 10mm and Bosch 3/8.
As you can see, the Bosch is the only one that has the teet in the center. I ran into some unusually hard rock over the weekend and tried switching between all 3 bits. I didn't see any significant difference in terms of making progress. I also tried drilling a hole with a 3/8 and then reaming it out with the 10mm. It was easy. The difference between 3/8 and 10mm is very slight making the ream easy but the difference in the way the bolt drives and tightens is amazing. I no longer have to fight the 5 piece bolt into the hole or hold my breath wondering if it is going to be a spinner.
The bits without the teet bounce around a little when first starting the hole but once you get it started there is no difference. My progress when drilling is virtually the same. I have a batch of 10mm bits on the way and the cost is less than $4 a bit. They are Tungsten Carbide tipped. Now if El Dingo would just Get Off My Lawn...

[clink]

Mrs. Cyclops.