Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread

[Brad Young]

JC, you should write how to manuals. 

Probably so. From having never drilled at Pinns to one of the absolute experts on bolts there. In less than two years. Very impressive.

Kinda like a VW Bug successfully going from 0 to 60 in 15 seconds.

[clink]

Definitely not a square back. The Thing?

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

About 3/8" x 3.5" SS Powers spinners........

What JC and Clink are seeing is what I have had problems with in the past year.  The problem, as both JC and Clink describe it, is that the cone collapses around the bolt so that the bolt will no longer move down the threads on the cone.  The cone isn't spinning in the hole; it is very easy to unscrew the bolt.  The problem is that the bolt just comes to a stop when screwing into the cone and won't go any further.

After this happens all the usual techniques such as putting pressure on the hanger don't work.  As JC and Clink mentioned, you can pull the spinning bolt and put a new one in the same hole which tightens up fine.  I tried switching to a newer bit more often to insure that the hole was staying close to 3/8".  That has helped a bit, but it is still happening.

I have a stock of older 3/8" x 3.5" Powers in Colorado.  I brought one back with me to compare with the newer model to see if it is some sort of manufacturing defect/improvement.  I have been placing this type of bolt in the Pinnacles for about 12 years and this problem has only begun in the past year.  Hmmm.

BTW, this happened to me on the most recent Resurrection Wall rebolting.  I was super tired, the sun was going down and I was replacing the second bolt of the pitch 2 anchor so we could rap off and get the hell out of there before it got dark.  For those of you who haven't been to the base of Resurrection Wall it is a poison oak jungle!

Anyway, the bolt was a spinner.  Damn.  Fight off hand cramps to drill a new hole.   Get the bolt in and just pray that the rope isn't in the poison oak jungle at the bottom.  Then my headlamp died..........

[F4?]

Say Bruce, while replacing...and you placing the new bolts near a good clipping hold???

Thanks!

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

Say Bruce, while replacing...and you placing the new bolts near a good clipping hold???

Thanks!

Have no fear we have Clint on the case!  On his notes about the route he has the bolts
where you climb away from the ladder marked.  That's bolts #1,3,5,9, and 12 if you are
keeping score at home.  We are keeping the bolts as close to the original locations as
possible.  Some of the rock up there is a bit sketchy!

[clink]

  I have been placing this type of bolt in the Pinnacles for about 12 years and this problem has only begun in the past year.  Hmmm.

Exactly my sentiment.

[JC w KC redux]

About 3/8" x 3.5" SS Powers spinners........
The cone isn't spinning in the hole; it is very easy to unscrew the bolt. 

Bruce - with our spinners the bolt will neither tighten nor unscrew. At that point we gently pulse the whole rig out of the hole. I am saving any bolts that are spinners and they all have the deformed nose cone.

I know from working in manufacturing that all parts are made to comply with a certain range of tolerance. Problems can occur when one part is at the high end of tolerance and the other is at the low end - drill bits could be on the lowl end and bolts could be on the high end. We saw this kind of thing pretty frequently at Toyota with body versus parts tolerances. Body Quality would say they were within spec and so would the parts suppliers - but things would stack together to make fits in assembly difficult.  

[clink]

Bruce - with our spinners the bolt will neither tighten nor unscrew. At that point we gently pulse the whole rig out of the hole. I am saving any bolts that are spinners and they all have the deformed nose cone.

 I was able to unscrew the bolt off three spinners and fish out the sleeves with the small extraction tool before replacing the bolt in the nose cone and pulling it out. No pulsing required. I am surprised that you were able to remove the complete assembly together. I wonder if we have 10mm bolts being sold as 3/8s. I am skeptical of Fixe's operation standards.

 On a separate note the new bits drill fast but the flutes do not go as far down the shaft as the former ones did. limiting or ceasing the piston action while drilling. Of the six holes I have drilled with it, three of them required removing the bit once to clean out the dust before being at depth. The prior bit drilled 26 holes with most not requiring bit removal at all.
 
 

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

About the spinners......

I talked to Greg Barnes tonight.  I am going to send him one of my bad bolts to let him have a look at it.

[JC w KC redux]

Bruce - just as an fyi - clink is talking about the DeWalt bits.

Noal and I were able to pulse out (with a crowbar) the whole assembly on both of the Blowing Chunks bolts that were spinners. It did not take a lot of effort - just slow and steady.

[F4?]

Have no fear we have Clint on the case!  On his notes about the route he has the bolts
where you climb away from the ladder marked.  That's bolts #1,3,5,9, and 12 if you are
keeping score at home.  We are keeping the bolts as close to the original locations as
possible.  Some of the rock up there is a bit sketchy!

Sigh, it's a dream come true...Man that will be one heck of a climb when you guys are done.
 Talk about a project.
It was a hard route to lead, as I kept getting suckered into following the bolts.
I hope the new bolts can be better suited to free climbing.
Plus the old ones didn't look extractable.

Now I just need to lose 20lbs and do some climbing.

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

What, you have a girlfriend? I don't remember FoP or the MoM authorizing you to distract yourself that way....

Brad,

I will let her know that she is on probation:-)

[JC w KC redux]

Noal and I got 9 bolts replaced today - the seven lead bolts on Stretch Seven and the anchor for The Rookie.
I'll update the list some time this week.

[JC w KC redux]

Brad asked about the bolts on Stretch Seven.
#5 was the only stud bolt - all the rest were star dryvins.
Noal did #6, 3 and 2. I did #1, 4, 5 and 7.
Noal said all of his came out without the crowbar - just tuning fork and fingers.
He also said they all came out in one piece - scary!
#3 - the scariest of all - came out totally intact and the hole couldn't be reused because of bad rock quality.
Before I patched the old hole - I blew it out and checked the depth with my blow tube. It was totally under-drilled and the installer just kept pounding on it even though it wasn't seating properly. The lead sleeve position was way high in the hole - nowhere near the bottom of the sleeves where it should have been.

Bolt 3 exactly as it came out of the hole

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

JC,

it's kind of a double edge sword.  We have all clipped enough Star Dryvins at the Pinns that we want to believe that they are not great, but OK.  That means they should offer some resistance during removal efforts and not just fall out in our hands.

Thanks to you and Noal for all your efforts.

[JC w KC redux]

Bruce - about half of them had decent purchase in so-so rock but I'd say the ones that pulled in one piece (nail and all) had shear strength only. One of the anchors we pulled at The Rookie had the sleeves behind the hanger

Always a good feeling and a good day to get some quality replacements installed

[Brad Young]

Always a good feeling and a good day to get some quality replacements installed

May I suggest a re-word?

Your replacements are ALWAYS quality (high quality). Perhaps the good feeling comes from replacing bolts that were just plain crap (as opposed to replacing bolts that were still OK).

Thanks, as always for the good work.

[waldo]

Bruce - about half of them had decent purchase in so-so rock but I'd say the ones that pulled in one piece (nail and all) had shear strength only. One of the anchors we pulled at The Rookie had the sleeves behind the hanger

Always a good feeling and a good day to get some quality replacements installed

JC, thanks for all the work. I enjoyed the climbing on stretch 7, but I knew it was a no-fall route. I never repeated it. I think I'll go back now.

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

Clint and I were up on Resurrection Wall yesterday.  It was my second trip and Clint's fourth.  Clint finished rebolting the first pitch while I worked on the pitch two bolt ladder.  After six man days of work up there we only have the first four bolts of the bolt ladder left to replace.  We still have two ropes fixed at the top of pitch two.  Clint is planning to go up there mid-week next week to finish up.  What a guy!

BTW, a few weeks ago Clint took a look at the bolts on the Holmgren variation.  As feared these are glued-in Star Dryvins which are very, very, very hard to remove.  Three have SMC SS hangers and two have Leeper hangers.  Showing that he is a smart man, he left them where they stand.

Here are a few photos.  Note the RK on the homemade hanger.


Here is the remains of some mid-pitch anchor on the second pitch.  Scary!
 

[mungeclimber]

Am I gunna die if I try it now?