Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread

[mynameismud]

drilling 1/2" (12 mm) bolts by hand is an experience.  Have not done it on lead but have drilled a few 7" x 12 mm holes.  Bruce and Clint are the go to guys for bolt beta.  Bruce usually checks for forum on occasion.

[JC w KC redux]

Do and of you have any experience with the FIXE Triplex bolts? I've been using the standard 5 piece but the appeal of the Triplex is super simple removal when its time to replace it. Also wondering how different it is to drill a 12mm (almost 1/2") over a 3/8". Obviously with my Bosch it doesn't matter but I'm thinking of using these for some Pinnacles projects. Thoughts?
-Kyle

Kyle - Brad and Alan replaced an anchor above Nexus with 1/2" and didn't act like it was any big deal. I agree with you about the triplex bolts making more sense - especially on high traffic routes that will need periodic maintenance. Unfortunately the ASCA does not supply us with those for Pinns.

[kylequeener]

Aslo would like to request information about glue in bolts for use in replacing bolts at the Pinnacles. If anyone has first hand experience and would like to contact me about it, please do so, so we can start exploring the possibility of replacing bolts on the harder of climbs at Pinnacles, which Mud brought up on a previous thread concerning Future Shock and Foreplay/Tailspin.

[kylequeener]

Kyle - Brad and Alan replaced an anchor above Nexus with 1/2" and didn't act like it was any big deal. I agree with you about the triplex bolts making more sense - especially on high traffic routes that will need periodic maintenance. Unfortunately the ASCA does not supply us with those for Pinns.

Expanding a hole is one thing but drilling a 12mm hole on lead is more what I'm concerned about. The Triplex, if anyone doesn't know, only comes in a 12mm diameter. My initial question about FIXE Triplex bolts concerns more about FA's over rebolting.

[clink]

Triplex seem to be a smarter bolt solution.
Let us know how they place.

[JC w KC redux]

Expanding a hole is one thing but drilling a 12mm hole on lead is more what I'm concerned about. The Triplex, if anyone doesn't know, only comes in a 12mm diameter. My initial question about FIXE Triplex bolts concerns more about FA's over rebolting.

Expanding a hole can be a real pain as the drill binds until you get past the original depth - luckily we usually only have to do that with the 1/4 holes and those bolts are only about an inch long. I do like the triplex design and have looked at them - but they only come in 55 and 75 mm lengths which equates to 2 and 3 inches - and then consider that you have part of the stud out of the hole for the washer, hanger and 3 threads showing above the nut - so you lose some length(about 1/2"). Of course that lost length is partially offset by the increased strength and holding power of the larger diameter. That's about all I know about it.

[mynameismud]

When we rebolted Lava Falls and Shake and Bake we used 12mm glue ins.  This all by hand but on rappel.  We rebolted in the same hole when possible.  It was not to bad but it was a fair bit of work.  I am not sure I would want to drill a 12mm hole on lead.  Karl used 1/2 bolts for all his routes including what he drilled ground up on lead.

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

With regards to glue-ins, Triplex, etc.  Here are a few of my thoughts.

The '5-piece' bolts seems to be good for routes that don't see a lot of hard falls which means probably about 90% of the routes at the Pinnacles.  Obviously, there are some very popular sport routes (mostly on DIscovery Wall and the Monolith) where people take repeated falls while trying to lead them.  In these instances, it seems to me that the degradation of the hole, and not the bolt, is the real problem.

So, what can be done to keep the hole from degrading?  I don't think using Triplex bolts are the answer.  While they are more easily removed than the '5-piece' they are still basically the same design.  And, since they are 12mm which is basically 1/2" there isn't much you can do if the hole goes bad. Glue-ins might be a better solution in that they use more surface area to provide holding power, but again, if the rock quality is suspect, I really don't know what you do when a hole goes bad.

Sure, you can drill out a 3/8" to 1/2", but what do you do when the 1/2" hole degrades?  BTW, experience seems to indicate that you can drill out an existing hole when increasing the diameter by 1/8" or more.  Rebolters who are trying to enlarge a 5/16" hole to 3/8" have found it very hard to drill(too much binding) and have had to resort to using a reamer.

What to do?  What to do?  Given the generally soft quality of the rock at the Pinnacles there probably isn't one solution for this problem.  It might be as simple as moving the bolt to better rock. Or, drilling the hole from 3/8" to 1/2" might work, at least for a while.

[F4?]

Drilling a 12mm glue-in on lead...ugh, can you say tedious?

Mr Mud, Clint and Bryan basically grinded the 12mmx8cm holes. It took forever!
And is on of the reasons why not all of Shaken Bake was upgraded (2days was just not enough time).

Clint would spend hours banging away at a hole, take a break, rappel to the belay station, take a sip of water, some chocolate from his pack (yeah he held out on us) and ascend back to his hole and bang away.
He did this for something like 8-10 hrs and never touched terra firma (maybe for lunch, but that degrades the story).

[kylequeener]

Added a bolt to 675's (Truth or Consequence) last bolt turning it into a two bolt anchor on 5/22. This last bolt had two smash links on it and a two bolt anchor was located five feet up and fifteen feet right from the last bolt tucked up underneath a roof. I removed the red webbing that was on it this anchor. The route now climbs 4 bolts to a two bolt anchor equipped with rap rings. The original anchor wasn't very inspiring either, I could see a good portion of the stud behind the hanger on one bolt and the other bolt had what looked like a home made steel hanger. The same dubious anchor is also the original anchor for 674 (Jeopardy). I imagine I will add a bolt to that climbs last bolt creating a two bolt anchor for that one as well.

This earlier anchor in no way removes any memorable climbing and the route is 'OVER' in terms of difficulty. The change was to facilitate a safer and easier way to lower off for this route.

Less shenanigans, more fun. Truth or Consequences is one of my favorite routes and might be the most unique 5.12 in the park. It features deep pockets and in-cut crimpers instead of the usual knobs found on most other climbs. Send it!

[mungeclimber]

Are you trolling, or seriously altering an existing line's character?

Have you talked to the FAist? If you have, why not mention that the first go around?

[kylequeener]

Are you trolling, or seriously altering an existing line's character?

Have you talked to the FAist? If you have, why not mention that the first go around?

I'm not trolling. I did it. It was a logical adjustment. I could have called Tom Davis and asked but I didn't. If you went to the routes and climbed them or even just looked at them the change would make total sense. It hasn't changed the lines character. And I whole-heartedly believe that adjusting were the anchor was located was a good thing to do. Would I go and add a bolt to the route to the left (very high first bolt, bad landing)? No, that would seriously alter the character of the route and I wouldn't dare do it without the FA's permission.

I'll call Tom now and see if he agrees with the change. If he don't like, I'll go pull my bolt.

EDIT: I e-mailed Tom Davis. It also seems possible that the "last bolt" may have been just a one bolt anchor. We'll see what Tom says.

[mungeclimber]

Adding a bolt, even an anchor is retro'ing. May make sense, but best to work for consensus imho.

Not trying to be a douche, but I've made the mistake of doubling a crusty old bolt to use as an anchor for a proj. Does it change the character? To me, no, the guidebook still describes how to climb the original line, and I avoid drilling extra holes. But figured I'd mention it to save ya some headache.

[kylequeener]

Adding a bolt, even an anchor is retro'ing. May make sense, but best to work for consensus imho.

Not trying to be a douche, but I've made the mistake of doubling a crusty old bolt to use as an anchor for a proj. Does it change the character? To me, no, the guidebook still describes how to climb the original line, and I avoid drilling extra holes. But figured I'd mention it to save ya some headache.

I don't think you're being a douche. You are, typically, the first to speak when ethics come up and that's all you've done.

If you look in Brad's guide book these two routes in question show them going up and right to an anchor that is a top rope anchor for a route called Vanna (FA: Unknown). Meaning that maybe Davis nor Rubine placed that anchor? The whole wall is just sorta whacky. Was the anchor for Vanna before or after the 5.12's? Did Davis and Rubine even use that anchor or did they just lower off one bolt? Not many people climb these routes, and its a shame, but everyone who I know who has climbed them has chosen to lower off the single bolt with two smash links on it. I guess you could call that a consensus. Typically two links on a bolt mean it was meant to be a lower off point. I'll be interested to hear how Davis and Rubine established these climbs.

[JC w KC redux]

Kyle,
What you did sounds like it added value to the climb and took away nothing.
Don't know if you have a copy - but according to Rubine's 1995 guide all three routes were originally TR'ed by unknown and then bolts were placed using hooks by Rubine and Davis. He lists the lead bolts as long wedges so maybe the anchor is too.

[JC w KC redux]

I finished work on the Tunnel Traverse today.
The wall now has 3 excellent climbs and this route is now star worthy.
Most of the bolts did not require a crowbar. Several snapped off with the tuning fork and the nuts and hangers popped off of two with only the tuning fork under the hanger. There were no threads showing above the nuts on the two that popped off. No way any of these 1/4" bolts would have held a fall. The crux bolt at the bulge was loose and only embedded in the rock about 1/2 an inch. Several of the others were only in the rock 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch. 

[mungeclimber]

I don't think you're being a douche. You are, typically, the first to speak when ethics come up and that's all you've done.

If you look in Brad's guide book these two routes in question show them going up and right to an anchor that is a top rope anchor for a route called Vanna (FA: Unknown). Meaning that maybe Davis nor Rubine placed that anchor? The whole wall is just sorta whacky. Was the anchor for Vanna before or after the 5.12's? Did Davis and Rubine even use that anchor or did they just lower off one bolt? Not many people climb these routes, and its a shame, but everyone who I know who has climbed them has chosen to lower off the single bolt with two smash links on it. I guess you could call that a consensus. Typically two links on a bolt mean it was meant to be a lower off point. I'll be interested to hear how Davis and Rubine established these climbs.

I've worked the moves on one those from TR, and I seem to recall there being moves after the last bolt, but I think I'm remembering a high bolt as a kind of directional bolt on the slabby part. Definitely get in touch with Tom. I happened to see Tom last night at a friends bday dinner), and if you fully explain the position of bolts I can see the value of an anchor on that side.

[CruxLuv]

Rebolt compilation as of 5-23-15

No wonder your wrists hurt dude! 

Nice work.  Thanks for keeping it safe.

[kylequeener]

I heard a reply from Tom Davis about Truth or Consequences. They way they originally set things up was to use the last bolt on Jeopardy and Truth or Consequences to lower off from. He had no problem with an updated anchor there. The anchor for Vanna (tr) was originally the start of a second pitch that was never worked on.

So when the new guidebook gets going there are some corrections that could be made on these two routes. For now though I will put them up on the Mountain Project in hopes more climbers will show them some love.

[clink]

Nice. I bet Tom is using the new anchor in the near future.