Ranger Bolts rebolting

[mungeclimber]

are there some categories we could use to summarize our collective positions for the lead bolts at least?


1. Strict replacement only.
2. Replacement, but if hole fails ok to move within short distance of less than a foot. [Typically this comes with 'use best judgement' caveat if it doesn't fit within a short distance because rock quality is bad]

3. Replace bad existing (aid or free) bolts, and retro (add) bolt(s) are ok, if necessary, to protect otherwise dangerous clips
4. Replace bad existing (aid or free) bolts, and a couple retro free (add) bolt(s) are preferred/desired.

5. Remove bad existing aid bolts, and replace free bolts within short distance of less than a foot.
6. Remove bad existing aid bolts, and replace free bolts and retro a couple bolts, if necessary, to protect otherwise dangerous clips
7. Remove bad existing aid bolts, and retro or replace free bolts to optimize clips for free climbing movement/stances.

8. Leave some bad, or existing, aid bolts, and replace free bolts within short distance of less than a foot.
9. Leave some bad, or existing, aid bolts, and replace free bolts and retro a couple bolts, if necessary, to protect otherwise dangerous clips
10. Leave some bad, or existing, aid bolts, and retro or replace free bolts to optimize clips for free climbing movement/stances.

For my part, 1 and 2 are not controversial given Pinns history/ethics overall, unless executed poorly and in bad faith. 3. is flexible in my mind if the free bolts went in top down. We may not know this history? Jim or Brad, can you add thoughts? Preserving bad and originally top down bolt positions isn't a worthy goal in my mind. 4. I have difficulty with also, unless they are only strictly top down established sections. Then retros are fine in that section.

For 5 through 7, removing the aid line doesn't seem viable with those that have posted up so far.

For 8 through 9, some combination of these is what is being discussed, as I understand it. 8 being like 1 and 2 above seems not controversial. 9 and 10 are more at issue.



As for anchors, moving an anchor that went in top down seems non-controversial to my mind since it was a bit or artifice to put it in the first place. I just don't know the history well enough to know if any anchors are top down. Can you anyone confirm the history on the anchors?

If the anchors were established as part of the FA, then I think the position should stay where it is, unless it needs to be moved because they are in bad rock or in bad condition.


Ultimately we only have a handful of responses so far.


 

[Atomizer]

That's exactly what I'm saying. The ROUTE is not a bolt ladder. The ROUTE is a beautiful, obvious line of weakness allowing you to free climb an impressively steep wall. Out of respect for the real route, the bolt ladder seems unnecessary.

I see no reason that the bolts from the "original route" aid route should be removed. They never got in my way when working the route and I frequently pulled through on some to get the draws on... god forbid putting the draws on top down... The way it is now is just confusing, thats all. If new shiny bolts are put in much of the confusion would be negated. Leave those things in, keep the history. I feel that none of the current bolt positions are bad. What are we trying to do, just hand things to people? and make it as easy as possible? Part of climbing is using your brain and by the time you get to 5.13 I would hope you would know when to put on a long draw or runner. Come on... are we trying to dumb this thing down?

IMHO the fear that Brad always has of Pinnacles being turned into a climbing gym is actually coming true due to all the cool old bolts being replaced and all the kinks being aligned and justified by what theory seems right. But nothing will ever make Pinnacles safe... not even solid bolts... what a delusion that is... ASCA values seems kind of ironic in the context of the loose nature of The Pinnacles and the inherent risks and problems of placing bolts perfectly and where we want.

And Munge, you're way too serious. Maybe everyone one is too serious. It's pretty obvious which bolts are for free climbing, they should be replaced if they seem sketchy.

[clink]

Part of climbing is using your brain

We have a sage in our midst. Damnit, I knew I was missing something. Nice

a climbing gym is actually coming true due to all the cool old bolts being replaced

What I have seen of the bolt replacement is that the crappy old bolts are being replaced and the cool bolts are being left.

Pinnacles being turned into a climbing gym

 Should the original bolts on Foreplay, POD, Can"t Elope Death(hardcore sport for sure) and Lard Butt be left(or had been) because  5.15 climbers abilities make them secure enough to climb them as is?

 Climbing, a lifelong pursuit.

 Or , really YOU SHOULD GIVE IT UP  brau, because that bolt you need for protection isn't necessary for a REAL CLIMBER and you are ruining their playground just being here.

Climbing? Bouldering on the coast or taking my grandson to Castle, pulling plastic at the gym, throwing the hexes in and some of the cams out for a High Sierra route. Reminiscing with old partners and making plans with them and more recent partners for a 35th year ahead. Making progress on a multi pitch and year FA that we gained 70ft on in 2015 or working the moves 10 ft higher on over a bulge that I really should be belaying Gavin, Kyle or Atomizer on. Contemplating whether to let Geoff or Aaron talk me into a Yosemite wall this year when there is always next. Praying that Cook doesn't crater again. The happy realization that some of my acquaintances are the finest people and I am privileged to call them friends and berate them on occasion.  

 Anyway, them bitches would never call me Mudmittens because I ain't worried about getting my M'er F'ing hands dirty!  

[mungeclimber]

Cheers Atom!

If by serious, you mean analytical, sure.

If by seriously meaning to go to a party to talk about upgrading bad bolts and get a burn on RB, yep. I'm in.

And bolts that get hammerjacked with falls, lets beef those up.

[mungeclimber]

With the passing of Scalia, I can't help but think of the analogy of climbing ethics debates to the debates over "originalism" vs. a "living" Constitution. The perfect tension between the past and future.

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

Adam Long wrote:
IMHO the fear that Brad always has of Pinnacles being turned into a climbing gym is actually coming true due to all the cool old bolts being replaced and all the kinks being aligned and justified by what theory seems right. But nothing will ever make Pinnacles safe... not even solid bolts... what a delusion that is... ASCA values seems kind of ironic in the context of the loose nature of The Pinnacles and the inherent risks and problems of placing bolts perfectly and where we want.

As one of the people who does a lot of rebolting at the Pinnacles for the ASCA I feel a need to reply to this comment.

When I replace bolts I try as hard as possible to put the bolt in the same hole or as close to it as possible given the sketchy quality of rock there can sometimes be at the Pinnacles.  I don't know how the rumour that we are moving bolts got started but it just isn't true. If anyone ever has any questions on a rebolting project that I have done please feel free to contact me.  Please don't start unsubstantiated rumours.

[mynameismud]

I have a question.  In both of the old Rubine guides there is a 12d variation that goes out left of the 13a dyno.  How many people have done this? 

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

Here is what I posted on the Rebolting thread when asked what Clint and I were going to do about the bolts on the 2nd pitch aid ladder of Resurrection Wall.

Have no fear we have Clint on the case!  On his notes about the route he has the bolts where you climb away from the ladder marked.  That's bolts #1,3,5,9, and 12 if you are keeping score at home.  We are keeping the bolts as close to the original locations as possible.  Some of the rock up there is a bit sketchy!

[F4?]

Yeah! let us normal folks have a chance at the route....put them bolts where they should be.

And soft brush the holds as well.

[Jim Thornburg]

Mynameismud the "12d" variation was climbed by Dave Schultz because he couldn't get the dyno. I can't remember if he redpointed the route that way or just worked out the moves. Either way, going that way seemed just as hard or harder than the dyno way, so I'd guess the left variation is 5.13 also.

[mynameismud]

Mynameismud the "12d" variation was climbed by Dave Schultz because he couldn't get the dyno. I can't remember if he redpointed the route that way or just worked out the moves. Either way, going that way seemed just as hard or harder than the dyno way, so I'd guess the left variation is 5.13 also.

Do you know where it goes out left?  I would like to give it a try.

[Atomizer]

When I replace bolts I try as hard as possible to put the bolt in the same hole or as close to it as possible given the sketchy quality of rock there can sometimes be at the Pinnacles.  I don't know how the rumour that we are moving bolts got started but it just isn't true. If anyone ever has any questions on a rebolting project that I have done please feel free to contact me.  Please don't start unsubstantiated rumours.

As for Brad Young's comments upthread about Clint and I moving bolts on the second pitch of Resurrection Wall to improve clipping...that is simply not true. We tried to put the bolts as close to the original holes as possible.  I told Brad that Clint had a topo that indicated the critical bolts on the 2nd pitch and since we were not sure we were going to replace all the bolts we at least wanted to replace the critical ones.  Maybe he misunderstood what I said.  BTW, we ended up replacing all the bolts in the aid ladder.

Bruce my comments about straightening out kinks weren't aimed towards you. I have absolute respect for what you, Clint and others do with rebolting. My concern is that everything at The Pinns gets rebolted and a lot of history is lost. But maybe that's just a stupid view on my part because I tend to be safety conscious and I sure love those new stainless bolts when i find them. Good work on the Resurrection Wall, I would have liked to see the last bolt to the right a foot or two but, what the hell, there are new bolts now so there is no longer a mental picture of all the bolts pulling for a leader.

[karl]

I always thought the easiest way to deal with Ranger Bolts was to replace all or most of the free climbing bolts that are necessary to safely free climb it and remove any others. I'm not sure that you have to move any bolts, because I never had a problem with drag as I didn't clip every bolt and I extended one along the way. If a hole can't be reused, then the bolt should be placed close but in a more optimal position for free climbing.

I'd then look at the aid line. When you have them right on top of each other, I'd remove the worst ones as they don't need to be any closer than about 3 or 4 feet apart. After that, if there is a section that can't be safely aided by using the aid bolts for progression and the free bolts for protection, then I'd look to replace an aid bolt with something that we'd feel comfortable falling on. That bolt and hanger could be painted darker than the free bolts to avoid confusion.

As for anchors, I don't really have an opinion as much a observations:
The halfway anchor has history and people seem to love that bottom section as a climb. If it needs moving up a little bit, then that is probably as arbitrary as the place that it currently is.
The upper anchor is nice to lower off from, but cheats the climber. I don't think that you could put it any higher as most of the rock over that lip is quite hollow and brittle.
The chain anchor on the very top shares with "West of the Sun", so that should stay.

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

Adam,

here is what I wrote regarding your concern about replacing old bolts when it was raised in the Rebolting thread:

"I think the crux of the issue is what you think of the quality of the bolts that were put in during the FA.  If you feel that the bolts people placed when they were putting up routes back in the day were good at the time they were placed then all we are doing is maintaining the 'good' nature of the bolts.  Future climbers should not have to deal with bad bolts because they have decayed over time.

If you feel that the bolts which were put in during the FA were crap and have always been crap then, yes, you have a valid argument that we are changing the nature of the climbs by replacing the crap with good bolts.

When Tom Higgins was doing the FFA of Resurrection Wall he grabbed the belay knob at the top of the 2nd pitch, but couldn't pull up resulting in a 30 foot fall on a 1/4" x1" Red Head bolt.  I doubt that, 38 years later, that bolt would have held that same fall."

[Max]

4. Gluing the hold is a sticky situation. It was a very important rest stop for me when I did the route. If it goes the route would likely be an 8a at that point. So it would officially be considered a hard sport route by euro standards. It would be awesome to see it stay. But that would be an experiment and since that hold is a polished knob that is loose and its doubtful gkue would hold it on for very long anyways unless you encase a few of the edges of the knob in it. I'm not a pro but I've seen the best in the world glue stuff on or reinforce and I can say no one on this forum has the skills to do it right, not even myself. Given the nature of the rock I doubt a fix would last more than 15 years even given the European techniques that are well established using Sika anchor fix. I've seen many routes in Europe where a hold is glued from behind then breaks off anyways. Then you end up crimping on glue. I'm going to go with what Kelly Rich told me years ago, "if you want to do something hard at pinnacles, you better do it now..." So the hold might break but that will be part of the evolution of the route. I think it will still be climbable once the hold is gone.

Just go bolt that hold on to the wall if it's so important to the route