MudNCrud Forums
Sitting and Day Dreaming => Mud Puddle => Topic started by: Brad Young on October 02, 2014, 05:29:13 PM
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Most of the people on this site know me. Most of you know that I have a strong, life long interest in military history. An interest like this is hard to explain (it's kinda like explaining a passion for climbing to a non-climber).
War is, after all, about horror, and destruction and hate. It is almost literally the very, very worst of human nature. But, conversely, war is also often about the best of human nature. Like themes of horror, themes of heroism, sacrifice and love of fellow humans run through the story of war too. Anyone who has read about Joshua Lawrence Chamberlin at Gettysburg in 1863, about Chief Josef of the Nez Perce; any student of the Duke of Wellington, Winston Churchill, the Duke of Marlborough, Saburo Sakai, George Patton and endless other named and nameless human beings can be astounded at what war has brought out in humans pushed to the absolute limit of humanity. The genius. The determination. Even the eloquence.
This thread has nothing to do with climbing. It is off topic. It proves that I am a hopeless and pathetic nerd. It will interest no one on this site.
And yet posting this is harmless; so I forge ahead.
I was recently reminded of an event such as those I describe above. It involved Dwight Eisenhower, when he was the Commander in Chief of all the Allied forces in Europe in World War Two. In reading (again) about these events from 1944 and 1945, I was struck utterly at how one man can say something that is short, to the point and perfect for the occasion. It goes like this:
Several months before the Allied invasion of France ("D-Day"), Eisenhower was appointed to his position as Supreme Commander of Allied forces in Europe. He knew that the invasion would be hard; that there was no certainty of success. He was given one short, direct and simple order by the Combined British/American Chiefs of Staff. He was ordered to:
"Enter the continent of Europe and, in conjunction with the other United Nations, undertake operations aimed at the heart of Germany and the destruction of her armed forces."
Such a simple sentence. But over 40 million people had already died in this European war, and before the Allied forces brought Germany to her knees, another 10 million would follow. Fifty million dead (with countless more wounded and taken prisoner).
Eleven months after the invasion of Normandy, Germany was on her knees. Most of the country was already conquered, her armies were scattered, disorganized, ill-equiped, and, mostly, dead. Tens and tens of thousands of American, British and other Allied soldiers had also died in those eleven months. Adolf Hitler committed suicide in late April, 1945. He was succeeded as leader of Germany by Admiral Karl Doenitz. Sensibly, Doenitz sought peace as quickly as he could after taking over leadership of what was left of the German nation. The initial German surrender took place at Eisenhower's headquarters on May 7, 1945.
The war was over. Now to get the word out. How to tell the Chiefs of Staff and then the press and the world?
Eisenhower's staff were almost beside themselves about what to say. Everything they'd worked for, all the death and destruction that had been inflicted, the resources wasted. It was all over. The staff (generals mostly) composed cables that were more and more verbose. Each draft was more grandiloquent, more congratulatory than the last.
Finally, Eisenhower had had enough. He politely thanked his lieutenants and then dictated the message himself. He said:
"The mission of this Allied force was fulfilled at 0241, local time, May 7, 1945. Eisenhower."
A few perfect words.
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The potential comparison to GW's "Mission Accomplished" media parade and tail wagging is not lost.
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The potential comparison to GW's "Mission Accomplished" media parade and tail wagging is not lost.
I hadn't even thought of that comparison.
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Brad, great post.
Climbing a difficult route, is in a way, a faux battle.
I have felt that climbing, training and enduring the hardship it at times brings was good preparation for the adversity of war. Further, that the bonds built between climbers are similar in nature to those shared by soldiers. Not to diminish the terrors of war by comparing them to a recreational sport, but in the peace we enjoy, this activity helps one understand a little of what those in military service must withstand.
What do you think?
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...Further, that the bonds built between climbers are similar in nature to those shared by soldiers.
I absolutely agree. Study after study after study has found that the vast majority of soldiers don't fight for their country, or for God, or for their mothers or apple pie. Their fight (at least in the "immediate now" sense) is for their brother and sister soldiers who are right there with them. Their squad and maybe up to their platoon.
...Not to diminish the terrors of war by comparing them to a recreational sport, but in the peace we enjoy, this activity helps one understand a little of what those in military service must withstand.
No, of course war and recreation aren't directly comparable. But there is a significant and important component that they both share: I firmly believe that a certain percentage of humans need/seek/benefit from being around danger. Some call the type "thrill seekers." I think I fit in the category (although the phrase "thrill seeker" is pretty nauseating to me). Being exposed to such danger can be life affirming and life altering (and too it can be life ending - but that's not the point of what I am saying).
War and climbing both provide/allow/require that exposure to danger. Both can create a strong bond with other people ("a bond forged in fire" is a phrase I've heard).
How lucky are we, the vast majority of Americans that we have the time, the wealth and yes the safety that, if we want danger, we can seek it out on our own terms. How fortunate we are to experience what is mostly perceived danger, instead of having no choice and no way out as has been the fate of so many in human history.
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good thread.
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Having just purchased Tora Tora Tora, can we turn to Japans' entry? What was the overarching plan that an attack on Pearl would bring about?
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To sink the carriers? Thereby maintain naval and air superiority in the pacific? No plan to invade the mainland? Just own the Philippines?
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That's seriously one of the very best war movies ever made. They actually built 1/4 and 1/10 scale models of the major ships for the film shoot. Then they destroyed most of them by re-enacting the real thing. Somewhere I have photos of the "Battleship Arizona" in harbor, with movie riggers wading in the water next to it, adjusting its position.
And the Japanese aircraft in the movie (Zeros, Kates and Vals) were painstakingly reconstructed/modified out of old surplus Air Force AT-6 Texans. I saw some of them flying at the Reno air races back when I went to that in the early '70s with my dad.
The question of Japan's entry/plan/expectations is extremely complex, but I'd be willing to try it in three sentences:
1. They invaded China (in 1931 and 1937), then later took what had been French Indochina (in 1940) and we reacted by trying to punish/isolate/embargo them.
2. By 1941 our attempts at isolating the Japanese were succeeding; Japan was quickly heading to desperate economic straights (they had six months worth of oil and - due to our embargoes - had little prospect of getting more); we'd painted them into a corner because of their world altering atrocities.
3. They intended to "blitzkrieg" across the Pacific and into the Indian Ocean, secure their conquests and then sit back and let us make peace overtures once they'd bloodied our noses, keeping of course, after the peace, much of what they'd conquered.
OK, so the sentences run on a little.
Speaking of the Japanese, it still shocks me how little most westerners know of what they did to China. I guarantee that all of you have heard of the Jewish Holocaust in Europe. And I'll bet not one of you has heard of the Japanese rape of Nanking in 1937.
A conquering Japanese army was let loose on the then-captitol of China in a week-long frenzy of rape, murder and looting. Hundreds of thousands of Chinese were murdered. That's not a typo. Since Nanking was the capitol of China for a few years then, Western embassies were located there. There are many nearly unbelievable, but also totally creditable accounts by embassy staff of the atrocities, of Japanese soldiers doing things like (literally, you can't make this up) throwing Chinese babies into the air and catching them on bayonets.
And you wonder why the Chinese carry a grudge?
Why haven't Westerners heard about this event? Is it because it was in deep Asia? I personally think it is because it was in 1937 and so much that came after was also so horrific that events then were just overshadowed and forgotten (but as I stated above, the Chinese haven't forgotten).
Like I wrote: "[war] is almost literally the very, very worst of human nature."
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Thx BY, the embargoes help explain a lot.
Most of us have seen movies about the events in 37, but it isn't kept front of mind that is true.
Every politic has a history.
Ps watching the last of the bombing scene now. I have been at the Arizona memorial. Devastating attack.
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I have read the book on Nanking. I have also read well over a dozen books on the history of China and the Pacific theater. The Japanese were absolutely brutal and it also happened in area's other than Nanking. I think another reason it got a bit less media attention was because, after all, they were Asians. We were a fairly prejudiced lot back then.
From what I understand ( and this is very limited ) the were two agendas for Hawaii. One was to hit the harbor and the other which probably would have from a tactical point of view done more damage, was to hit the fuel depots. The Japanese were suppose to hit the harbor and the air strips then come back for a second sortie and hit the fuel depots. There was over a years worth of fuel there ( there were several across the Island ) and if the Japanese had hit those it would have actually done more damage to the Island and it would have forced the US Pacific Fleet to either come all the way back to the mainland or go to one of the Australian Ports. Hitting the depots would have set us back significantly in retaking Midway.
That is my understanding.
I think the reason some of the East Coast Chinese are so dam tough is they lived through the Russians, the Germans, the Japanese and Mao. I can understand why the Chinese were so bitter about the behavior of some of the Allies. They had gone through so much. The Allies felt a bit entitled because of the same reason ( they had just defeated the Japanese ).
Edit: Mao was just getting started at this point and the US defeating the Japanese removed that obstacle.
Wild Swans is a good book if you get a chance.
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... I have been at the Arizona memorial. Devastating attack.
Vicki and I went out to the Arizona memorial when we first went to Hawaii. It was a quiet day with some clouds. There were very few of us on the boat leading out to what's left of the ship.
I studied the ship's hulk, still sitting where it had been sunk on Battleship Row. I spent a lot of time reading the names of the crew members who had died with the Arizona on that horrible December day.
Then I went to the back of the memorial. That's where I started crying, reading the names of the men who had survived the sinking, gone on with their lives, but then opted to be interred after death, on the Arizona, with their shipmates who'd died there. One can only imagine the thoughts that must have had led to such a decision.
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I have read the book on Nanking. I have also read well over a dozen books on the history of China and the Pacific theater.
Given some of the books I've seen you reading, I'm not at all surprised that you've read of Nanking. And no, it wasn't an isolated event at all, just a particularly obnoxious part of the "normal" Japanese conduct in their conquest and occupation of China.
I said above that it is easy to understand why the Chinese hold a grudge. But, although it is easy to understand, I wish they wouldn't. People change, societies change. Evil always lurks beneath the surface in any people, but we're talking a human lifetime ago. I wish they would let it go. Whole societies in the Middle East have made nursing grudges a way of life. How far has that gotten them toward peace and prosperity?
From what I understand ( and this is very limited ) the were two agendas for Hawaii. One was to hit the harbor and the other which probably would have from a tactical point of view done more damage, was to hit the fuel depots. The Japanese were suppose to hit the harbor and the air strips then come back for a second sortie and hit the fuel depots. There was over a years worth of fuel there ( there were several across the Island ) and if the Japanese had hit those it would have actually done more damage to the Island and it would have forced the US Pacific Fleet to either come all the way back to the mainland or go to one of the Australian Ports. Hitting the depots would have set us back significantly in retaking Midway.
Actually there were two waves of Japanese aircraft, and it was the third wave that was supposed to hit the naval fuel silos. That third wave would have been devastating (also) for all the reasons you describe. But the Japanese Admiral Nagumo lost his nerve - remember that no American carriers had been at Pearl and the Japanese had no idea where they were. He could just imagine that they were out there in the northern Pacific, waiting to launch a counterattack against his fleet, against the six carriers that were the core of Japanese naval strength. So he opted not to reload the first wave aircraft and cancelled the third wave (it had been optional to start with).
It was a terrible mistake though. He was cautious and conventional in his thinking about Japan's fleet (remember that a country can't build new aircraft carriers overnight). But Japan wasn't going to win by fighting a cautious and conventional war - their only (slight, slender) chance at achieving some of their war goals would have been to go all out in every way at every chance.
Nagumo wasn't alone in this type of thinking. Three years later, at the battle of Leyte Gulf, the Japanese Admiral Kurita turned his forces back just when they were on the verge of inflicting what would have been the very, very worst defeat in U.S. history (all U.S. history - naval and land combat included). If he had been willing to go for absolute broke he could have totally destroyed the U.S. invasion fleet off the Philippines (the impact of that destruction would have been like 20 Pearl Harbors).
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war goals
when you say war goals, do you see them as affirmative colonizing efforts in the broader pacific, or just near territory? What would be the broadest possible sphere of control they could have maintained in post WWII posture, if outcomes of 'all out' strategies had been used and succeeded?
e.g. how much raw material for the war effort could have been pulled from mainland China to support expansionist plans?
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when you say war goals, do you see them as affirmative colonizing efforts in the broader pacific, or just near territory? What would be the broadest possible sphere of control they could have maintained in post WWII posture, if outcomes of 'all out' strategies had been used and succeeded?
e.g. how much raw material for the war effort could have been pulled from mainland China to support expansionist plans?
The whole Japanese war effort was designed to acquire resources, at the time China was a poor source of raw material.
Within six months of December 7, 1941, the Japanese attacked and took British Burma and Malaya (known especially for huge mineral resources), the Dutch East Indies (oil, oil and more oil; at Balikpapan Borneo the oil came out of the ground so light and pure that it could be put right into ship's bunkers as fuel with no other refining), the Philippines (resources and a "stepping stone" to the south), and many islands in the middle of the Pacific (defensible space). Huge, huge conquests.
I don't know that the Japanese ever really figured out ahead of time what they would "settle for" in the event of a negotiated peace (which would have been a "win" for them).
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Another costly mistake for the Japanese was not using their subs to their fullest extend. If they Japanese had used their subs as well as we used ours we would have been in trouble.
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Another costly mistake for the Japanese was not using their subs to their fullest extend. If they Japanese had used their subs as well as we used ours we would have been in trouble.
I agree and I disagree. The Japanese used their subs a lot and exactly as foreseen by their pre-war submarine doctrine. That doctrine required using subs to fight with (in support of) their fleet - to atrite an enemy force before, during and after battles between the main enemy fleets. Their subs performed aggressively and well this way (among many other successes, their subs finished off the U.S. carrier Yorktown at Midway, and sunk outright the U.S. carrier Wasp off Guadalcanal).
But your point is huge. This doctrine was probably bad. If the Japanese had used at least some of their subs like the Germans used their U-Boats, to attack Allied supply ships, it would have dramatically affected the war. Attacking the extremely long supply and convoy routes in the Pacific would have resulted in lost supply ships and lost supplies. More critically it would have required the U.S. to heavily escort such ships. The resultant drain on the navy would have been just enormous (ships on escort can't directly fight the enemy).
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The doctrine was bad. If they had a dozen subs as effective and the Tang and the Wahoo we would have been screwed. The survival story of the Tang is I think my all time favorite WWII survival book. Well that and Unbroken.
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One hundred years ago men were dying in Europe at an appalling pace. World war had broken out at the end of July ("World War One," although it wasn't called that really, until much later).
Austria declared war on Serbia on July 28th. General declarations of war followed by Germany, France and Russia. The French, and the Russians, both eager to get at their traditional German enemy, attacked early. The Germans defended against Russia (until Tannenberg) and attacked France with a sweeping right wing through neutral Luxembourg and Belgium to get to the "easier" parts of France and knock her out of the war quickly ("the Schlieffen Plan"). The German's blatant violation of these neutral countries brought Britain in on the side of France and Russia.
Almost all Europeans expected a short war. Glorious attack, victory, and then "home by Christmas." It didn't work out that way though. Rapid fire artillery, the mobility allowed by railroads, and the horrible, horrible concentrated fire of the machine gun, among other new weapons, allowed huge armies to clash with utterly indecisive results. Especially the machine gun.
Old tactics suited to the days of muskets led to waves and waves of infantry soldiers being literally mowed down while they charged in completely ineffective attacks (this was before the armies had entrenched). By Autumn the small pre-war British Army was almost totally destroyed. Whole school classes of German soldiers died at the same time, together, their system having inducted all the men of one town or county into single military units. In their turn too, the French suffered hundreds of thousands of casualties in weeks (weeks) as they pursued "Offensive à outrance," the offensive "at all costs." At all costs indeed; nearly an entire generation of young French men would die in four short years.
Words like "'unspeakable carnage" and "generals that were no better than donkeys" were spoken in later years. But meanwhile, in 1914 the slaughter continued without pause.
By 1918 tens of millions had died. Entire countries were shattered. Empires began falling. And really all of old Europe had died. Never again would trust in government, love of country, deference to superiors, and blind patriotism reach the levels seen in the pre-war summer of 1914. Not ever. Not close.
Among the European leaders, the old aristocracy, the royalty, and of course the military leaders, very few saw it coming. Most fully expected that the "home by Christmas" slogan would be real. Perhaps a few British leaders had the clearest view. Although, like almost all European cities on the eve of war, those of Britain were filled with cheering, wildly enthusiastic, blood-lust-filled masses, several of her leaders were most, most reluctant to go to war. The violation of Belgium (it was called a "rape" then) really left Britain little choice; she'd guaranteed Belgium's sovereignty and hundreds of years of foreign policy meant she had to fight any attempt by one power (Germany, in 1914) to dominate the European continent.
Among these reluctant, but firm British leaders was Edward Grey. Edward Grey, "First Viscount Grey of Fallodon." Grey was Britain's Foreign Minister as the decision about war was made. He didn't want it, but knew too that Britain had no choice. He voted for war, but he also saw truly and clearly what was coming.
Shortly before Britain declared war on Germany (on Aug. 4, 1914) Grey spoke with an acquaintance about the coming inevitable; he famously captured the tragedy with a few perfect words:
"The lamps are going out all over Europe," he said. "We shall not see them lit again in our lifetime."
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Martha was at an Elton John concert in Sacramento, last week...
(Hey - this is Martha. I will express it to you as I experienced it Brad and M.O.M.) He came on strong with a few well known hits but then stopped all of the crowd with a few minutes of dialogue about World War 1. He went on to introduce and play a song he had written early on and made a tribute to all of our men and women sacrificing their own safety and lives to protect us. He asked us all to honor our soldiers and saluted the USA. Incredible , take your breath away moments.... After the crowd applauded louder and longer than for any of the previous songs. Elton seemed choked up as he left the stage for a few minutes. The crowd kept clapping until they noticed he walked back in. Extremely moving and unforgettable experience.
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Jon, nice job letting us hear from Martha. I wouldn't have expected Elton John to talk in that way. I'd like to have heard what he said.
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Elton was revisiting an impression that inspired an early song. I was surprised and pleased that in the same week as this thread about war history began on a climbing forum, to hear that a pop icon gave credence to our soldiers sacrifice and participation in a war. Humbling reminders of what this freedom I am enjoying today cost someone else.
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Okay - I'll bite. What was the song?
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and “Oceans Away” is a tribute to World War II soldiers, dedicated to his father, Capt. Robert Taupin.
Might be this one. WWII not WWI tribute. A tribute nonetheless.
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Most of the people here have heard of U.S. Army General David Petraeus. Petraeus led the 101st Airmobile Division in the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Later, he focussed on counterinsurgency doctrine and training (COIN). In a very unusual step he included many non-military people as he and his study group at Fort Leavenworth wrote the new Army/Marine Counterinsurgency Field Manual.
Late, in 2007 Petraeus got to implement the new COIN doctrine; President Bush put him in charge of operations in Iraq, where his new approach, plus a surge of American troops, led to a huge drop in violence, almost a total end to the insurgency and near civil war.
In between his leading the 101st and his stint at Fort Leavenworth, Petraeus had a very difficult job: he was in charge of recruiting and training a new Iraqi army in Iraq. This was in a "country" that was then basically falling apart, one severely divided along sectarian and national lines, one with a decades long history already of fielding quite ineffective military forces.
He did the best he could with what he had. Even up to this day parts of the Iraqi army he helped train are good. But most of it isn't (as witnessed by the recent disintegration in June in the face of ISIS attacks). Most of the Iraqi army, like the "country" of Iraq, is divided by hatreds and distrust. Most of the Iraqi army was and is pretty bad.
Petraeus had the perfect words to describe his duty; his job of trying to train a force in those conditions (this duty was in 2004), with the resources he had, and with the "recruits" presented to him. Petraeus said that it was like:
"Building the world's largest aircraft, while in flight, while it's being designed, and while it's being shot at."
That sounds like a hell of a job to have to do!
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That sounds like a hell of a job to have to do!
Who would do that except under "orders"?
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"The lamps are going out all over Europe," he said. "We shall not see them lit again in our lifetime."
Brad, have you read "A Soldier of the Great War" by Mark Helprin? If not, it's worth your time.
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Brad, have you read "A Soldier of the Great War" by Mark Helprin? If not, it's worth your time.
Oh yes.
Generally my military reading is limited to pure non-fiction. But that book was very worth the read. I actually felt like it was much longer than, but in the same quality class as two other great works of military fiction, "The Red Badge of Courage," and "All Quiet on the Western Front."
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Diplomatically speaking, does the world need more French Peacekeepers?
Through the French eye of design: May 2010
thefrencheye.blogspot.com400 × 270Search by image
... forces issued these shorts and sleeveless tops to the French peace keepers. I wonder how many other nations have gone along with this cut.
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butt the real question is do they have lace camo undies
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Check out some of the IDF women who served in the 1960s. They had nice uniforms and ready to go Uzis.
Now, back to serious subjects on this thread...
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lacy panties?
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"We laughed and joked together, having forgotten war altogether," Rowden wrote
No Man's Land, Christmas Eve, 1914
100 Years since WWI Christmas truce. An impromptu truce broke out on the front lines during WWI. The war would continue for three to four more years. The Western Front ran from the North Sea to the Swiss border.
The may have started on Christmas Eve but Christmas Day was probably the quietest day on the Western Front. The war went on for another four years and Generals on both sides made sure this did not happen again. The truce was not along the entire front but in some places it lasted past the New Year.
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By the time "the Great War" ended (we call it World War One now), the Allied countries that survived were led by strong men, men who'd come to leadership positions through the crucible of world war.
David Llyod George was the British Prime Minister. He'd come to the job in 1916, when the prewar government fell and a coalition government took over to continue the war effort.
France was led by it's Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau. He'd come into his position as the whole French leadership changed in reaction to the French Armies' 1917 mutiny. Clemenceau led France to ultimate victory in the war. In doing so he acquired the nickname "Le Tigre" (The Tiger), for his aggressive war policies. He was also known as an intelligent strategist, and was sometimes compared to the most famous French general of all time.
And Woodrow Wilson was president of the United States. Wilson had a reputation for high intelligence, and, especially for being a man of principle and conscience. Wilson's "Fourteen Points" for peace and his concept of a "League of Nations" were idealistic (but, it turned out, unworkable) ideas designed to keep world peace for the long term.
All three participated in the post-war Paris Peace Conference. All three disagreed on many basic and not-so-basic terms to demand of, and impose on, Germany.
The negotiations were long and hard. There was shouting. Delegates walked out. And this among allies.
Eventually, after months, a treaty was finalized (the treaty of Versailles - it was so punitive toward Germany that many historians feel that it led directly to World War Two). The leaders/negotiators were all exhausted by the end. They went home.
Once home in Britain, Llyod George was asked "how he thought he had done" in trying to accomplish British goals at the Versailles Conference. Lloyd George replied with a few perfect words:
"Not badly, considering I was seated between Jesus Christ and Napoleon."
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Norman Cota was born May 30, 1893, in Chelsea, Massachusetts. A West Point graduate, by June 1944 Cota was a 51 year old Brigadier General and the Assistant Commander of the United States 29th Infantry Division.
The 29th was one of two U.S. divisions to go ashore at Omaha Beach in Normandy on June 6th (“D-Day”). Of the two U.S. invasion beaches on June 6th, Omaha was by far the harder fight. Anyone who has seen the opening 20 minutes of the movie “Saving Private Ryan” has seen what Omaha was like; a slaughter of men being mowed down as landing craft doors dropped to the sand, artillery, mines, mortars and machine guns taking soldiers down en masse. Those that survived crawled in the sand, huddled against the sea-wall, or cowered in shell holes or behind beach obstacles, trying only to live.
Omaha was a near-run thing; so near that at one point U.S. General Omar Bradley was within minutes of ordering the landing there abandoned and the men already ashore left to their fate. Afterward they called it “Bloody Omaha.” Over 2,000 U.S. soldiers died in one day on Omaha and more than that number were wounded.
Norman Cota was a huge part of the reason that Omaha didn’t fail, that the landing there succeeded - by an extremely slim margin - in creating a beachhead.
Cota may have been the oldest soldier to set foot on Omaha Beach on D-Day. He may also have been the highest ranking officer to come ashore.
An hour after the first landings, aware of the chaos, confusion, and death then prevailing on the beach, he rode a landing craft into a crossfire of bullets, and artillery and mortar explosions. After stepping onto the beach, he strode upright across the flat and totally exposed terrain. He approached a group of soldiers pinned down by enemy fire next to a sand dune. Aware that the invasion itself was at stake he said perhaps the most famous words of his life to that group:
“Gentlemen, we are being killed on the beaches. Let us go inland and be killed.”
I simply can not imagine the courage it took to walk across that beach. To stand and address a group of soldiers doing everything they could to just not die. How could he have hoped to survive? But he did it. With a few perfect words he made it clear to these soldiers that, although they were all probably going to die that day, they might as well die fighting instead of cowering. His words and his leadership started a process; it started those soldiers fighting back. The effect wasn’t instantaneous, but it started.
The Germans had put up barbed wire fences to obstruct the Allies' path off the beach. A soldier placed a Bangalore torpedo – a tube filled with high explosives – under one fence and blew it away. The first soldier through the breach was killed by sniper fire. The men following him froze. Cota saw what was happening and raced into the breach. He led the surviving soldiers through the gap in the fence and up a steep bluff to overtake a German gun embankment. At one point he got ahead of his men and stood waiting for them, twirling his .45 on his finger.
Norman Cota was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his leadership that day. The DSC is the second highest award the United States can give for battlefield conduct. I’ve always thought it a travesty that he wasn’t awarded the Medal of Honor. For the courage, in the face of what he must have known - known - would be certain death, to act, to inspire, and, to speak a few perfect words.
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On this Memorial Day I'm extending "a few" to "many." Many words by an American soldier about to go into battle for the first time. To his wife who he feared he would never see again.
The soldier, Sullivan Ballou was a successful, 32-year-old attorney from Providence, Rhode Island. When Abraham Lincoln called for volunteers in the wake of Fort Sumter, Ballou enlisted in the 2nd Rhode Island Infantry, where he was elected major. By mid-July, 1861 Ballou and his unit were in camp near the nation's capital. The movement of federal forces into Virginia, and with it First Bull Run, the first major battle of the American Civil war, was imminent.
Here's a video link to what may be the most poignant, perfect letter ever written by a soldier to his family.
On this day, as a favor, I ask that Mudn'Crud readers listen to this, if at all, with their eyes closed and giving it's three and a half minutes their full listening concentration (I have never been able to listen to this letter without crying):
Here are the full words of the letter:
"My very dear Sarah:
The indications are very strong that we shall move in a few days - perhaps tomorrow. Lest I should not be able to write you again, I feel impelled to write lines that may fall under your eye when I shall be no more.
Our movement may be one of a few days duration and full of pleasure - and it may be one of severe conflict and death to me. Not my will, but thine 0 God, be done. If it is necessary that I should fall on the battlefield for my country, I am ready. I have no misgivings about, or lack of confidence in, the cause in which I am engaged, and my courage does not halt or falter. I know how strongly American Civilization now leans upon the triumph of the Government, and how great a debt we owe to those who went before us through the blood and suffering of the Revolution. And I am willing - perfectly willing - to lay down all my joys in this life, to help maintain this Government, and to pay that debt.
But, my dear wife, when I know that with my own joys I lay down nearly all of yours, and replace them in this life with cares and sorrows - when, after having eaten for long years the bitter fruit of orphanage myself, I must offer it as their only sustenance to my dear little children - is it weak or dishonorable, while the banner of my purpose floats calmly and proudly in the breeze, that my unbounded love for you, my darling wife and children, should struggle in fierce, though useless, contest with my love of country?
I cannot describe to you my feelings on this calm summer night, when two thousand men are sleeping around me, many of them enjoying the last, perhaps, before that of death -- and I, suspicious that Death is creeping behind me with his fatal dart, am communing with God, my country, and thee.
I have sought most closely and diligently, and often in my breast, for a wrong motive in thus hazarding the happiness of those I loved and I could not find one. A pure love of my country and of the principles have often advocated before the people and "the name of honor that I love more than I fear death" have called upon me, and I have obeyed.
Sarah, my love for you is deathless, it seems to bind me to you with mighty cables that nothing but Omnipotence could break; and yet my love of Country comes over me like a strong wind and bears me irresistibly on with all these chains to the battlefield.
The memories of the blissful moments I have spent with you come creeping over me, and I feel most gratified to God and to you that I have enjoyed them so long. And hard it is for me to give them up and burn to ashes the hopes of future years, when God willing, we might still have lived and loved together and seen our sons grow up to honorable manhood around us. I have, I know, but few and small claims upon Divine Providence, but something whispers to me - perhaps it is the wafted prayer of my little Edgar -- that I shall return to my loved ones unharmed. If I do not, my dear Sarah, never forget how much I love you, and when my last breath escapes me on the battlefield, it will whisper your name.
Forgive my many faults, and the many pains I have caused you. How thoughtless and foolish I have oftentimes been! How gladly would I wash out with my tears every little spot upon your happiness, and struggle with all the misfortune of this world, to shield you and my children from harm. But I cannot. I must watch you from the spirit land and hover near you, while you buffet the storms with your precious little freight, and wait with sad patience till we meet to part no more.
But, O Sarah! If the dead can come back to this earth and flit unseen around those they loved, I shall always be near you; in the garish day and in the darkest night -- amidst your happiest scenes and gloomiest hours - always, always; and if there be a soft breeze upon your cheek, it shall be my breath; or the cool air fans your throbbing temple, it shall be my spirit passing by.
Sarah, do not mourn me dead; think I am gone and wait for thee, for we shall meet again.
As for my little boys, they will grow as I have done, and never know a father's love and care. Little Willie is too young to remember me long, and my blue eyed Edgar will keep my frolics with him among the dimmest memories of his childhood. Sarah, I have unlimited confidence in your maternal care and your development of their characters. Tell my two mothers his and hers I call God's blessing upon them. O Sarah, I wait for you there! Come to me, and lead thither my children.
--Sullivan"
Sullivan Ballou was killed the next day at the First Battle of Bull Run.
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I have to admit that I've never quite understood the concept of praying before battle. The whole juxtaposition of war, battle and killing just doesn't seem to jibe with the concepts of peace, love and understanding that form the core of all major religions. Still, it's always been done; almost all armies have prayed to their God for success in killing their enemies.
I recently came across a favorite such prayer. "Favorite?" Yes, favorite. I may not quite get the concept, but I can still admire the content.
In this case the prayer was made by Sir Jacob Astley, Sergeant Major General of the Royalist Foot, just before the battle of Edgehill, in 1642.
This was an early battle in the English Civil War ("civil war;" another phrase that's never made sense). The war came about because attempts at compromise between King Charles and Parliament had broken down. Each raised large armies to gain their way by force of arms. In October, at his temporary base near Shrewsbury, King Charles decided to march on London in order to force a decisive confrontation with Parliament's main army, commanded by the Earl of Essex.
Late on 22 October, both armies unexpectedly found the enemy to be close by. The next day, the Royalist army descended from Edge Hill to force battle.
One suspects that Sir Jacob Astley knew a bit about battle. He must have known it was intense, terrifying and risky. He must have known that his men would be concentrating totally, that there wouldn't likely be time, while fighting, to even think about anything else. His prayer was short, sweet and right to the point. He said:
“Lord, thou knowest how busy I must be this day. If I forget thee, forget thou not me.”
A few perfect words.
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A prayer made by a mind comprehending first the reality before his eyes, and yet able to invoke divine possibility. Decidedly adept.
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"Is that hold loose"
Perfect words from mungie as I lead up heavens gate 20 something odd years ago.
Sadly a nice cobble would later disappear.
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Winston Churchill is without a doubt one of the two figures I admire most in human history (the other is Abraham Lincoln). He made many, many brilliant comments, many funny comments and many that were both. So, with only slight editorial, a few of his more perfect words:
- "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." (I always try to remember this one when I'm talking about climbing ethics.)
- "If you're going through hell, keep going." (So obvious - after you read his words.)
- "This report, by its very length, defends itself against the risk of being read." (Short and to the point is always the hardest way to write.)
- "Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." (True when he said it, true in the past, true now.)
- "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." (True when he said it, indisputably and painfully true now.)
- "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else." (Hey, what can we say, we get there eventually.)
- "I am easily satisfied with the very best."
- "I am certainly not one of those who need to be prodded. In fact, if anything, I am the prod."
- "I am prepared to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter." (I can just see God wincing at the truth contained in this one.)
- "Mr. Attlee is a very modest man. Indeed he has a lot to be modest about." (About a fellow British politician.)
- "We occasionally stumble over the truth but most of us pick ourselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." (Do times really change all that much?)
- "In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies."
- "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it" (And did he ever!)
- "If you go on with this nuclear arms race, all you are going to do is make the rubble bounce."
And, on the humor side, this exchange between Nancy Astor and Winston Churchill:
Astor to Churchill: “Winston, if I were your wife I’d put poison in your tea!”
Churchill in response: “And madam, if I were your husband I’d drink it.”
(Oh for a leader of his character in America, now.)
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"I am prepared to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter." (I can just see God wincing at the truth contained in this one.)
At least you and your Maker are on a first name basis.
Thanks for the post.
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At least you and your Maker are on a first name basis.
Um, no.
I use the names "Mom" and "Dad" for them ;D ;D
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- "Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." (True when he said it, true in the past, true now.)
A Matryoshka Doll.
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This is the line. I refrain from a political comment leading to a quagmire of discussion that can happen somewhere else.
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There is no character, howsoever good and fine, but it can be destroyed by ridicule, howsoever poor and witless. Observe the ass, for instance: his character is about perfect, he is the choicest spirit among all the humbler animals, yet see what ridicule has brought him to. Instead of feeling complimented when we are called an ass, we are left in doubt.
- Pudd'nhead Wilson
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Military historians naturally develop favorites within their areas of study. Favorite eras, favorite wars, favorite commanders. And also favorite military forces.
I've always highly, highly admired the U.S. Navy, for example. Equal in my esteem has, of course, been Britain's Royal Navy.
The Royal Navy once almost literally ruled the seas. They have centuries long traditions and a history to match. Their performance as a military force has at times been mediocre. But not usually. Usually the Royal Navy has been an aggressive, well led, well equipped military force. One of the best forces in military history. Often its performance has been brilliant.
Famous British admirals range from Sir Francis Drake to the most famous of them all, Horatio Nelson (of Trafalgar fame).
One British admiral is a particular favorite of mine: Admiral of the Fleet Andrew Browne Cunningham. Cunningham served in World Wars One and Two. He was an admiral in World War Two, serving in the Mediterranean, mostly during the desperate days of 1940 through 1942.
Cunningham's Mediterranean fleet was all Britain could spare during those years (the majority of the navy had to be retained in British waters - fighting U-Boats and waiting for possible German sorties into the Atlantic - to preserve the merchant shipping that was the country's lifeline). He had to be careful with it; lost ships were not likely to be replaced.
And yet he had to fight hard battles. Against the Italian fleet and German U-Boats and bombers. He had to prevent resupply of North Africa, to support Malta and to, as far as possible, keep the "Med" open to, and maybe in parts controlled by, his forces.
Two of his most famous fights were against the Italians. He attacked the Italian fleet in its home port of Taranto with biplane torpedo bombers launched from aircraft carriers (and yes, that was before Pearl Harbor - the Japanese studied this attack very carefully in preparing for their own). At Cape Matapan he handled his forces very aggressively and routed an Italian force that was larger than his own.
During the first half of 1941 the British tried to help the Greeks. First they helped them fight against the Italians (who'd invaded without cause) and then they helped against the Germans who'd followed up to help their allies.
It didn't go well. By the end of April the Greeks were done for. And the British had conducted a forced and hurried evacuation of their Army forces by sea (a "mini Dunkirk"). The evacuation was largely successful, although Cunningham's naval forces took some significant losses while helping their army evacuate.
In May the Germans followed up their conquest of Greece with an airborne invasion of the Greek island of Crete. Crete dominates the eastern Mediterranean and the British had to fight for it. But this fight also went poorly (mostly due to British command and control problems). By the end of May and into June (1941) the British (mostly dominion forces - New Zealanders and Australians) were forced to make another hasty evacuation by sea. Naturally the evacuation was done by the Royal Navy.
And it wasn't easy. Three British Cruisers were sunk outright. Two Battleships took significant damage. Lighter forces were battered. The question arose of whether the Mediterranean fleet could take the loses and still function. The essential question literally became: could the Royal Navy still be able to fight for the Mediterranean Sea if it persisted in trying to save the British army from the south shore of Crete? Some commanders urged Cunningham to stop, to abandon the army units to their fate in order to save the even more vital Royal Navy units then in the Med.
Cunningham wouldn't have any of it. His was a fighting force. It would fight. It would evacuate the forces of its brother service no matter the cost.
Cunningham summed up his thinking on this issue in a few perfect words. His words made his intentions plain. At the same time they summarized in one phrase all of the Royal Navy's history and traditions.
Urged to quit the fight, to save his ships for the long battles ahead, Cunningham famously said: "It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue."
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What mettle. In 58 years the US Navy will have bumped their way into fully cured traditions. Thanks for the account Brad.
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In January I watched the PBS, Ken Burns series “The Vietnam War.” It’s 20 or so hours long. The series is unbelievably well done. It’s history explained, described, analyzed and, well, felt, incredibly well. The history of the war is presented in detail, and in very objective terms. But the highlight is the interviews. With U.S. veterans and Vietnamese. Of soldiers, leaders, and politicians. Of anti-war protesters, and with family of soldiers now dead.
Anyone with even the slightest interest in history should watch this program. Anyone who lived through those times or heard of them in their youth should watch this series. Be well prepared to cry.
My older daughter Katie has been home often this spring. I suggested to her that I’d like to re-watch the series. She immediately agreed to watch it with me. We finished this evening.
One of the soldiers interviewed is Karl Marlantes. Watch the series to get the full story of who he was. A fair summary would be this: He was an Oxford scholar in the late 1960s and opposed to the war. He had no need to join the military. He was out of the country on a scholarship. He thought the war was a terrible, terrible mistake. But, consumed by guilt that others were dying while he was safe, he joined the Marines and became an officer. He went to Vietnam to try his best to lead Marines in a way that would keep as many of them as possible alive. He saw heavy, heavy combat.
He delivers one of the most striking comments of the series. He speaks in a calm, reasoned voice. And yet his words act like a slap in the face. They aren’t “a few” words, but they otherwise fit in this thread. Marlantes said:
“One of the things that I learned in the war is that we're not the top species on the planet because we're nice. We are a very aggressive species; it is in us. People talk a lot about how well the military turns kids into killing machines, and I'll always argue that it's just finishing school.”
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Great series. I watched it free on YouTube but the subtitles for all the Vietnamese interviews were in Vietnamese. :incazzato:
I really enjoyed the series even with what I was missing and was determined to get the whole story - so I ordered the DVD's (on sale) from PBS. It turned out that I missed a lot of good stuff.
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WBraun
climber
Jun 3, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
The elite do elite stuff and reap high praise and that's why they're called elite.
When stuff goes wrong they can suffer elite failure.
That's the name of the game and it's not going away ......
From ST thread about two climbers who fell off Freeblast this week.
Brad, thanks for posting the above. JC, when you are done may I barrow your DVDs?
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Interesting write ups brad. I am of the school that the Americans eventually benefited from losing our battle ships.
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From ST thread about two climbers who fell off Freeblast this week.
Lexi emailed me that she and Dean were in the meadows when it happened and they heard them crater - awful.
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Werner has had some quotable lines. But, the one below I think is his best. Sad day for sure.
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The United States was brought forcibly into World War Two by the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, December 7th, 1941.
They caught the U.S. Pacific Fleet at anchor, totally unprepared and utterly surprised. Pearl Harbor was a disaster for U.S. arms. More than 2,000 soldiers and sailors were killed, and almost the entire U.S. line of battleships was sunk or crippled.
It was a massive shock to our country, a source of sadness and anger, even of hate.
But one western leader in particular rejoiced at the Japanese attack. Rejoiced to himself, at least. Inwardly, Winston Churchill saw the Pearl Harbor attack as very literally Britain's salvation in World War Two. Before the shock had worn off, before any victories had been won, and with many defeats yet to accrue, Churchill saw what was coming, now, with the world's most powerful country in the war.
He said a series of words about what he saw. They aren't a "few," but they're incredibly powerful and near perfect. And they're one of my favorite quotes in all of military history.
This is what Winston Churchill said about his learning of the Japanese attack:
"No American will think it wrong of me if I proclaim that to have the United States at our side was to me the greatest joy. I could not foretell the course of events. I do not pretend to have measured accurately the martial might of Japan, but now at this very moment I knew the United States was in the war, up to the neck and in to the death. So we had won after all! Yes, after Dunkirk; after the fall of France; after the horrible episode of Oran; after the threat of invasion, when, apart from the Air and the Navy, we were an almost unarmed people; after the deadly struggle of the U-boat war -- the first Battle of the Atlantic, gained by a hand's breadth; after seventeen months of lonely fighting and nineteen months of my responsibility in dire stress, we had won the war. England would live; Britain would live; the Commonwealth of Nations and the Empire would live. How long the war would last or in what fashion it would end, no man could tell, nor did I at this moment care. Once again in our long Island history we should emerge, however mauled or mutiliated, safe and victorious. We should not be wiped out. Our history would not come to an end. We might not even have to die as individuals. Hitler's fate was sealed. Mussolini's fate was sealed. As for the Japanese, they would be ground to powder. All the rest was merely the proper application of overwhelming force."
"We had won after all," and we'd just suffered a terrible defeat. But, indeed, they had.
Their "fate was sealed," and it was.
"Ground to powder," and they were.
"...the proper application of overwhelming force."
He saw it all coming.
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All the rest was merely the proper application of overwhelming force.
Yup, this is what I tell James.....US had resources and people....we would send in 10 tanks against 1.
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I hope Brad doesent mind this being placed here. This is a few lines from an account of climbing man made structures, in this case a dam, before the advent of climbing gyms. Written by(our own) Bruce Hildenbrand
"You might think that drilling holes in a structure holding back billions of gallons of water was ill-advised. And such an act would certainly be frowned upon by the local constabulary. But the thing looked climbable and we lacked common sense."
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That is indeed quotable.
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"You might think that drilling holes in a structure holding back billions of gallons of water was ill-advised. And such an act would certainly be frowned upon by the local constabulary. But the thing looked climbable and we lacked common sense."
Drilling quarter inch holes less than 2 inches deep in a massive, concrete dam.
Several orders of magnitude less than shooting at an elephant with a BB gun.
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Drilling quarter inch holes less than 2 inches deep in a massive, concrete dam.
Several orders of magnitude less than shooting at an elephant with a BB gun.
Taking repeated 20 foot falls onto those quarter inch bolts....
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Still a non issue. For instance, the Hoover Dam is 660 feet thick at the bottom. 2 football fields.
Crystal Springs Dam is 176 feet thick.
They like em thick :ciappa:
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But the thing looked climbable and we lacked common sense
:lol:
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Still a non issue. For instance, the Hoover Dam is 660 feet thick at the bottom. 2 football fields.
Crystal Springs Dam is 176 feet thick.
They like em thick :ciappa:
Thick as a Brick :guitar: :blahblah:
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Be fun to put a few bolted routs on the donnells dam...
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The emotional effects of war are incalculable. Soldiers, civilians, men, women and children. All are affected by war; some slightly, and some massively. Often the effects are life-long.
Submitted with no further comment is this very recent excerpt from an interview with a Japanese survivor of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima on August 6, 1945:
Emiko Okada, now 82 years old was eight when the bomb exploded. In the morning, before the bomb, her then-12 year old sister Mieko ran a family errand. The errand brought Mieko to within half a mile of ground zero (the point of land directly under the atomic explosion).
The interviewer asked Emiko whether her sister had died in the blast. She answered: "My elder sister is missing."
The interviewer wondered what the word "missing" meant, 75 years after the blast.
Emiko responded: "She has not returned home yet."
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Admiral Ernest King was the Commander in Chief of the United States Fleet and also the Chief of Naval Operations during World War Two. As "COMINCH/CNO"
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Today is the 80th anniversary of Operation Barbarossa, the start of the most titanic conflict in human history.
Just after 3:00 a.m. 80 years ago, three and a half million German and German allied troops attacked across the border of what was then the Soviet Union. Across the Bug and Neiman rivers on the first day, toward the cites of Vilnius, Minsk, Brest Litovsk and Lvov. Just under four years later the war on what became the Eastern Front ended. But only after the deaths of tens of millions of human beings.
Winston Churchill's comment at the outset of Barbarossa was short and to the point. Churchill had long hated and opposed Communism and the political system of the Soviet Union that was based on it. His hatred of Soviet Communism began when the system itself did in the early 1920s. It extended into the early years of World War Two when Churchill recommended that Britain, with its hands already beyond full fighting the Germans, intervene on Finland's side after that small country was invaded by Stalin's Red Army at the end of 1939.
Some thought Churchill crazy in his hatred of Communism. Rabid even.
Britain didn't intervene on Finland's side (among other issues was Britain's inability to even reach Finland with troops or aid). And by June 1941, the war had taken some nasty turns for Britain. She was by then standing alone in the face of stunning German military success. Although the Battle of Britain had been won, at that point in time Britain's very survival as a nation was still in question.
So when Germany invaded east, when it took on another enemy, Churchill was ecstatic. Maybe Britain would survive the war; maybe its survival as a nation was now possible. He made his views known.
Sharp wits noticed Churchill's radical change. They called Winston on his apparent hypocrisy, on his drastic move from a rabid hatred of the Soviet dictatorship to embracing a newfound ally.
Churchill was a man of ruthless priorities though, and by this point in the war he recognized that Germany was the one enemy that Britain had to defeat in order to ensure its survival. Indeed, Germany and Hitler absolutely had to be beaten to ensure the survival of Western Civilization. There were no other threats that compared to Nazi Germany, and Britain couldn't defeat that country on its own. Churchill responded to his critics. He summed up the drastic change in his view of Britain's new ally with a few perfect words:
"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."
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Best go climb a few of those top noch routes at the eastern front at the grotto
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Everything you give will come back to you.
Everything you take will be taken from you.
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A Ukrainian woman, face to face with Russian Soldiers. She's got more balls than any mere climber:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51902566227_d54f710b81_c.jpg)
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Being born and raised in communist China, I remember reading the book "Molodaya Gvardiya (The Young Guard)"by Soviet writer Alexander Fadeyev, stories about these young people in Krasnodon (Luhansk Oblast, Ukraine) fighting the Germans during WWII. At the end they were massacred by Germans, some of them were buried alive in a deep pit of a coal mine, several days later, Krasnodon was liberated by Red Army, and five of the Young Guard members were awarded as Hero of Soviet Union.
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May there be many such sunflowers.
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A few hours ago the Ukrainian delegate to the United Nations said this to the U.N. Security Counsel:
“At the outset, I would like to inform you that the demilitarization of Russia conducted by the Ukrainian Army and supported by the entire Ukrainian people is well underway.”
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"Russia" being equivocal on which borders he's speaking of...
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This post isn't about a few perfect words. It's about an American hero. A real hero. One who put his life on the line to save foreign citizens and to do what was just plain right.
William Calley just died. And may he rot in hell. He led the American soldiers in Vietnam in 1968 who committed the My Lai massacre. Read about it. Unarmed rice farmers. Men, but mostly old people, women and children. Slaughtered. American soldiers committing murder. As if they were Russians or something. And Calley led them and participated in the killing.
The hero that day was Hugh Thompson Jr. An American helicopter pilot who saw what was going on and landed his helicopter to try to stop it (and probably did stop it). Look him up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr.#:~:text=He%20is%20credited%20with%20ending,Hugh%20Clowers%20Thompson%20Jr.
He and his crew members landed to confront Calley and his men. On the ground. Tried to stop them while they were in the throes of bloodlust; committing murder. How they got away without being shot by their fellow Americans in turn mystifies me.
And then Thompson reported the events. Up the chain of command. He paid dearly for reporting what was murder. Death threats, harassment. One congressman even tried to have him court-martialed (why am I not surprised that this motherfu$%ing congressman was from the south??).
Thompson experienced post-traumatic stress disorder, alcoholism, divorce, and severe nightmare disorder because of what he went through. Despite this, he remained in the Army until November 1, 1983. He died in 2006.
Remember Hugh Thompson Jr. And his crew members Glenn Andreotta and Lawrence Colburn. William Calley died recently. Fuck him clear to his grave. Remember instead the true American heroes that stopped it.
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why am I not surprised that this motherfu$%ing congressman was from the south??).
Ahem...I am from the South and many of my neighbors and friends growing up in Alabama were Vietnamese. Please read the article in the link that mentions that hundreds of thousands refugees settled in Alabama and Mississippi in the 80's (maybe the largest population next to SF) People like my Mom volunteered their time with organizations that were formed to help the boat people.
https://mobilebaykeeper.org/blog/the-boat-people/ (https://mobilebaykeeper.org/blog/the-boat-people/)
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Great reply. But the south is a lot different now than it was in 1969 and 1970. In part due to the boat people (a huge number of them settled in California's Central Valley too). And apparently due to people like your mom too. Lots of changes.
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Yes, things in the South have changed.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm)
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Hawaii is the southernmost state.
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And the residents of both are oddly similar
i=qU7hb5TGQYKIJa4f [/youtube]