MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: Atomizer on February 21, 2012, 05:20:24 PM
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BIg dumb animals lurking around the monolith
Last Sunday we did our normal head to the monolith and do the sunny POD and Hawaiian Noises warmup. I noticed some folks looking at the steep face just to the left of the big overhang down and left of Foreplay. Latter I run into them on lunch rock and overhear them talking about putting in a bolt ladder. I tell them the line they are thinking of is likely 5.14+ if the rocks stays put, and that Sharma had brushed it off as too hard. I suggest they try the new 5.12b next to Black Dagger instead. but they brush it off with a air of, we’re not good enough for that. i just figured since they wanted to bolt a 5.14 they could try our 5.12b.
We head off in our own direction to huddle on the shady side of the Monolith in an attempt to crush the hard. Latter in the day MArk discovers that he left something up on lunch rock and heads off the retrieve it. He comes back down ranting that there are some guys drilling out of the pit left of Tailspin. I tell him that they are drilling a bolt ladder. Mark goes nuts... and we decide to go talk to the perpetrators.
I plan my actions carefully. “I ask are you really intending to drill a bolt ladder there?”
The larger animal who is big and thick like a goriila but with some extra body fat, and with one of those white things on his nose that signal a broken nose, is preparing to hang on their first bolt that was drilled from the ground. He says, “no we are not puttin up a bolt ladder, we are aiding this on bolts which we will remove latter, once we figure out where the bolts should go.”
I tell him that many high level climbers have looked at this and decided it’s too hard to bolt on lead and that drilling a bolt ladder is poor style in this area, and that the rock 25 feet up turns to choss.
He says, “we are not drilling a bolt ladder, we are making a free climb, we will likely not be able to climb it, but it will be bolted for someone else.”
We say, “this route will likely be chopped due to your style”
“Big Dumb Animal” now emerges in a rage driven from some unknown corner of his brain, “I will chop every bolt at Pinnacles if anyone touches these bolts!”
I question him, “listen to what you just said because it doesn’t make since to me, you are not drilling a bolt ladder, but you are aiding up on bolts that you will remove? That seems like it goes againsgt the ethics of this area and causes an irrepairable impact to this resource.”
“I don’t care about this place!”
“ then why are you here then?”
“ We are having an adventure”
As we watch he pulls himself up onto the bolt with just an aider and a daisy. No rope tied into his harness, we recommend a rope. And ask if they have hooks. which they do.
Mark, John, and I get irritated because these guys don’t seem to get what we are talking about. So we head towards discovery wall, but half way there we are still so heated we decide to go back and try to force some rationality into there skulls. When we approach animal #1 asks, “are you the same guys from ten minutes ago”. We say no we are not. They seem relieved and tell us the story of the guy that said sharma couldn’t do it. we notice that he now has a hook on an edge a few feet above that bolt. The hook is on an edge that I cannot even see. It looks like something Dave Allfrey described on an El Cap route that was considered A3+ hooking. A rope is now tied into the animal and connected to belayer below.
I say, “wow you are hooking now”
He asks, “do you think this will hold?”
“Bounce test that thing and you will find out”
Mark says “weight it, weight it...”
He won’t weight the hook. but then reaches up and touches a piece of rock that proccedes to fall on his belayer who is not wearing a helmet. He just takes the hook off without weighting it. and lowers down.,”I think you guys are faggots!...Faggots!”
I say, “well we could say similar things about you”
Mark says, “we don’t want to fight you”
He says, “ I don’t want to fight you either”
After about 15 minutes of non-confrontational discussion we seem to have pushed some kind of rationality into his brain. But the two of them keep insisting on facts that we know from years of climbing at the Pinns are inaccurate. Like when they say the rock on the upper part is definitely solid, which I know is otherwise. And that you can’t bolt hard routes on lead here, which I tell them is not true as some folks just put up a 13d on lead. We just ask them to only put in 5 piece bolts. And if you just want to aid there is an aid route just to the left put up by Bridwell.
But in the end they just want to have their adventure, but I fear that they will damage the rock putting in bolts on a route which is far above their abilties possibly botching the placements leaving a grid of empty holes. We are confused as to whether this our place to tell these guys how to act. And they seem to even understand how foreign their approach to this climb is to us. They just didn’t seem to care about local ethics and customs. Which hurts us when they are aiding one of Pinnacles last great problems using an ethic which damages the resource for putting up a route at a difficulty which they admittedly don’t climb at. This event was two weeks ago. Not sure what their progress is on that route at that point. Any advice? I'm sure there are some other points I missed about this event, I will let mittens chime in.
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Next time wait until he gets out on lead then throw rocks at him. works for marmots and big mean dogs. Just remember to put on your running shoes first.
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Wow. These people seem like total idiots.
I share your dismay, and so I don't have much else to elaborate on about that. I will, however add a few thoughts that come to mind:
1. You said: "They just didn’t seem to care about local ethics and customs." Welcome to the real world. Like bullies, litterbugs and road hogs and ragers, some people cannot/will not see beyond themselves and their "rights." They will do whatever they damn well please and no amount of influence will dissuade them. In the greater world this is what prevents a true, enlightened reaction to things like global warming.
As for the bright side? Maybe it this: they were apparently acting in (stubborn) ignorance instead of knowing disregard?
2. I worry for the future of our sport and am glad I'm 51 years old and started climbing before gyms made climbing accessible to "everyman."
3. Gyms don't teach ethics. Gyms exist to make money. I don't begrudge them this; I own a business and I run it to make money. But gyms teach some things that have a very bad influence on climbing (not on "outdoor climbing," on climbing; gyms aren't climbing, they're exercise). They teach:
- Safety above all else;
- Bolts next to cracks;
- Everyone can do everything;
- "Setting" routes is great, noble and heroic (even if you are totally clueless, and - PET PEEVE COMING HERE - real climbing routes are NOT "set," they are done, made or established. If I hear one more ignoramus comment about who "set" a route I may barf on the speaker).
4. There is hope. Why? Two reasons:
- None of this is new. The world has always been full of pukes and these people are no different than other idiots that preceded them (as an example, just recall the fiasco of the 1989 "guidebook" to Pinnacles). Yes, there seem to be more climbing pukes in the modern era, but there are, overall, more climbers in the modern era. I doubt whether the puke to non-puke ratio has changed much; and
- We've got young, strong active climbers like you and Mark who do care and who do pay attention. I've been looking for a way to compliment you and Mark on this subject and this is the chance: Although I'm somewhat jaded about "new" climbers, and about Pinnacles being turned into a "safe" climbing area by bolting the holy crap out of new and old lines together, guys like you and Mark exist and you matter. Twenty years ago, Davis, Rubine and Rich saved Pinnacles ethics; they made sure that for the following 20 years the predominant climbing value at Pinnacles would be adventure and not "safetyoverallelse". I feel that that "torch" is now with you and Mark, and (I don't know them) your circle of friends. This gives me hope.
Other young climbers who post here, like Mucci and Coobledik are part of the new generation too, but, without wanting to ruffle feathers, the real hope for adventure at Pinnacles is with guys like you two who establish and climb seriously hard free routes in perfect style.
5. Thank you for trying to talk sense into the senseless.
6. Did you get their names?
End of rant.
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I thought this was a joke, like the short story of the dam overflowing.
A few thoughts:
Recent events (unchecked bolting) have made it very clear that the stewards of Pinnacles are responsible for maintaining the local ethic/style. The NPS has taken a hands off approach since the big "meeting" on rapbolting, deferring to the regular climbers to uphold our combined approach to new routing.
There have been gray areas as to this or that but all in all, pinnacles is designed to "Self regulate". MOST guys who drill on lead know when to say when, if not you get a bolt ladder right?
I am very proud that you and Mark/John and any others have spoken up to those who have no regard for the rich history of high end free climbing at the pinns.
Brad is right, Most who enjoy pinns are regular joe's myself included. You and others who push hard at pinnacles are the future and the present, setting a standard for those who are good enough to test their mettle on the stone. I get psyched hearing about all of the proud routes getting repeats by your crew and others. New, hard routes that have gone in recently, have had tons of time and labor spilled to "Make it right". I will stand up for guys like you, who have passed on projects, opting to save a summit for the next generation.
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There is no excuse for the destruction going on at pinnacles right now. Bolts are getting slammed in by people who have no idea what they are doing. Routes are being erased, encroached or comfortized.
I applaud the action you guys took, barring throwing rocks (which I would consider myself) you did what any steward would have done.
Then, after the bolts are in, quietly and with pride held for the history of the area, you erase the route. Leave nothing but a bold statement.
Pinnacles deserves this.
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This is odd to start a line from in the pit.....below Foreplay and Tailspin??
There are already bolt holes already there..(right under tailspin)....so it's been tried and the bolts pulled. Whoever did it even made a nice epoxy hold to get started (this was back in 95??) and the offensive hold was removed (not me). That's how hard it is down there!
Yes it is sad that folks try to push a line without much thought of the end result. At that level (not that I'm even close) wouldn't a TR 1st seem in order? Karl no??
Why work to put in a new route..? Why not try Great Spectacular? It hasn't been freed, it's obscure. Heck might even have a loose hold or 2...plus all the bolts are already in...
And if it's a troll...DIE!
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i don't have an objection to bolt ladders. I would object to time, place, manner of such a bolt ladder.
in principle one can't object if one likes other routes that are aidable like a bolt ladder.
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in principle one can't object if one likes other routes that are aidable like a bolt ladder.
Bolt ladders WERE a style. Until they were freed. No they are as shunned as a chipped route.
When I climb the bridwell bolts aid ladder, I understand that the route was (at the time) cutting edge. No hooks were used and small bolts were incorporated to really keep the commitment.
Is the ladder drilled by these bozos comparable to bridwell bolts? NO.
Carrying the attitude that "well as long as it's ground up" does not hold weight with me. Not when climbers at the highest level, who tried to failure to send ground up, resort to rap bolting to finish. Everybody got all quiet.....Where is the voice of opposition?
Nobody walked away from that one. Save it for another generation? Nope.
Pinnacles is losing the game, slowly the standards of recent years are being nicked away bit by bit.
Rap bolting, drilling on established routes, adding convienance anchors, and drilling up through an existing route with a bolt ladder is all acceptable now.
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I hear ya Mucci. Though I'm going to stick with my 'time, place and manner' restriction on all manner of non-clean route making, but covering some of your arguments in the process may get me to my point eventually. Apologies for the rambling here.
Bolt ladders WERE a style. Until they were freed. No they are as shunned as a chipped route.
Similarly, by that argument Iron, like angles, blades and beaks, too was a style. New aid routes that use iron and destroy rock and make clean climbing easier, like a chipped route, should be shunned, by that principle?
When I climb the bridwell bolts aid ladder, I understand that the route was (at the time) cutting edge. No hooks were used and small bolts were incorporated to really keep the commitment.
Not having aided the bolt ladder, I understand the crux is the top moves, not the ladder itself. I don't believe it was put in as a cutting edge route. I think Craig Larry and Jim were just out for a good time in the stirrups. There is nothing cutting edge about small bolts at that time. 1/4" bolts were fairly standard until the 80s across the country, and even then 5/16ths were more common. At Pinnacles, I'd have to defer to someone more familiar with the history of star dryvs and how easy they were to obtain, but I bet they were more expensive than was worth spending on what was going to be a lark of an aid route. There wasn't hardly anyone climbing at Pinns then. An aid route on mono wouldn't have been that odd.
Where is the voice of opposition?
I'm opposed. don't get me wrong. Not sure I follow the reference though.
Time & Place: For all things there is a time and place. This is a different time than it was before. Bolt ladders are boring in most cases. Why put a lot of bolts for something that most people won't climb in this day in age so close to the trail, so close to free routes, so close to an EXISTING BOLT LADDER! It's like pissing into the wind and pulling on the cape of superman at the same time.
Manner: Based on the report it sounds like these guys were using stud anchors, not expansion sleeves. Not only does it make it hard to remove later, but if they rust out, replacing them is going to be a pain for ordinary humans in years to come. Stud anchors are not the standard at Pinnacles and are not a goal to achieve IMHO.
Those points together make me think these guys really do want to appeal to the adventurous side. They just don't have the context and people to bounce ideas off of.
Not to just harp on you Mucci bro. But we're clearly not making it easier for them to reach out to us if the first thing we do is lambast them. I suspect Mark and Adam had the right approach in general, now we just need to find out who they are and see if they want to apply their drilling elbows to something really worthy. gnaw mean?
I mean, hell, have any of us gone down to pull and patch the anchor bolts on the new Roof route yet?
I say beer discussion with em, and then if they drive that ladder to the top, we call it what it is. My crow bar is in the garage.
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I dig the feelings this thread has summoned.
Bolt ladders in blank rock are not the same as a feature being used for progression.
Bridwell bolts was cutting edge. Anything at pinns at that time was cutting edge. It was also a time when the precious resource of rock was abundant. Now thanks to efforts and agreements NOT to rap bolt, there is still some stone left for a few kids to test themselves on. We witnessed this with Mark and Adam's route in the area.
Conversely, at the other end of the spectrum, CONSTANOAN was stolen from those that would have started from the ground. Nobody is pissed about that one, cuz it's too easy.
This troll thread had me thinking the bolt ladder was going to join foreplay. I was mistaken and made comments above that should be disregarded.
Munge- The Reason I used the new "hard" route as an example is three fold.
A: Rap bolting is kosher at pinnacles, provided you do it at a high level.
B: Rap bolting has replaced drilling a bolt ladder, for style purposes.
C: Disregarding a standard set for managing the "effect" of certain tactics on the FA.
"You can't climb .13 from the ground at pinnacles". That was the standard. "Hooks just won't work at that level"
No saving it for the next generation, because they will just rap bolt it right?
I dig this exchange, Munge I hear you on the level, just venting here.
If they drilled a ladder route, I would treat it just like that route under the ROOF. Hopefully they wouldn't slam an anchor in on forplay's crux mini corner.
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This troll thread had me thinking the bolt ladder was going to join foreplay. I was mistaken and made comments above that should be disregarded.
I am confused... did you get verification that this was a "troll"? I hope so, because if the rock at the top of Tailspin is any indication, the rock where those guys are drilling could be bad enough to be unsafe even with bolts. The last thing the Monolith needs is another bolt ladder. The disturbing number of bolt that exist on Ranger Bolt Ladder is enough for the entire cliff. In addition, there is Bridwell Bolts, which after Brad's heroic rebolting effort is still has too many bolts.
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Yes it is sad that folks try to push a line without much thought of the end result. At that level (not that I'm even close) wouldn't a TR 1st seem in order? Karl no??
I don't post often, but I have been a big proponent of at least rapping down and checking out sections, looking for possible obvious lines of weaknesses, ensuring that the rock does not just appear solid, and ensuring that the route is worth being bolted before the hammer ever comes out of the bag. And if there is still doubt, then top-roping should be in order.
There are a great many unfinished routes at the Pinns precisely because there has been a great deal of opposition to that idea. The downside is obvious when you look at the two unfinished routes between Ranger Bolts and Gorillas in the Moss.
The one just right of Ranger Bolts ignores the obvious climbing weakness (which is straight up) and head diagonally towards Ranger Bolts presumably because the hooking would have been easier in that direction. However, it is hard to imagine a possible line that would not just go right into Ranger Bolts using that bolt line.
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Now, maybe the two people in the story were looking for the adventure of hooking and bolting there way up something. I think it would not be unreasonable to explain that The Monolith has a great number of routes and there is little room for anymore. If they can't be deterred, then it maybe explain that there are numerous areas within and outside of Pinns that have rock that no one would object to a bolted/aided/scrambled FA. I can think of many.
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Lastly... Mucci, it would appear that you are unhappy with our effort on "West of the Sun". I have been climbing at Pinnacles for about 14 years and have a love for it and it's history. I hope that if you have read my original report of how we went about bolting it, you can understand our decision making. We didn't just throw in the towel and start rap bolting to the top, we only bolted the section that had no horizontal or even semi-horizontal holds, then finished the route on lead.
If you haven't seen it, you can find it discussed here: http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=1537.msg16800#msg16800 (http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=1537.msg16800#msg16800)
If you'd like to discuss it privately, I'd welcome it. Just message me.
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BIg dumb animals lurking around the monolith
This event was two weeks ago. Not sure what their progress is on that route at that point. Any advice? I'm sure there are some other points I missed about this event, I will let mittens chime in.
I suggest calling the cops the next time anyone sees these guys around. A $500 federal citation should prove adventure enough for them.
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I'll vouch for Karl.
He's a great guy and has done a great job on new routes. Gorillas in the Moss is a great example for one of a route that I believe that went ground up?
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I have no words...
A product of climbing focusing on ability over history. A whole generation that stands on the shoulders of those who came before, never looking down, only grinding their feet back and forth.
What's strange about this story is that the desire for "adventure" usually comes with a desire for history imo. Afterall, it's the history that leads us to where the adventure is.
It would seem that these guys know a little something since the most obvious no-nothing meathead move would be to rap bolt since that's all you'd understand from watching videos. To attempt to "set" (sorry brad) a route via aid and hooks is not the most intuitive thing for someone with no background in the lore of the activity. I wonder where they got the idea in the first place?
Ok, I guess I did have words...
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I'll vouch for Karl.
He's a great guy and has done a great job on new routes. Gorillas in the Moss is a great example for one of a route that I believe that went ground up?
Thanks... and it did. It even involved dangerous tricks like free climbing past two potential bolt placements just to find hookable rock that would allow me to place the lower potential bolt.
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Karl,
I know we have not met. Nothing I say is personal, rather an opinion from someone who enjoys pinnacles on all facets. I harbor no ill will toward you or anyone, and hope some day to meet you in person.
This is why your route was used as an example.
At your level, with pre-inspection, and the history of hard routes you have put up, you chose to ignore the signs of that upper face in regards to the improbablility of hooking from below.
Sugar coating your efforts to Ground up the route does not make the rap bolts you placed "Okay".
Your team made a decision that ignored a long standing agreement (gentlemans honor).
Finally, you opted not to place a bolt ladder due to the style implecations, and the # of holes you think it would have taken.
Your team has now set a new standard, if you can't finish it, come in from the top no matter the grade to avoid bolt ladders.
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I will never clilmb that route, or any other 11's,12's 13's.
Now, that the bolt ladder crew is in, when they can't finish thier route, they can do what your team did. When opposition for the "Outsiders" starts, they can use the 14 year pinnacles veteran's decision to rap bolt as an example of why it's "Okay". Preserving the rock is #1 right?
I applaud most efforts for New routing, but when the wool is being pulled over ones eyes in the name of a route that has only a few suitors, it is a bit sad. Call it what it is karl, top down.
For the record, I have no problem with anybody drilling a ladder, I agree that the monolith is not the place. I hope that the near future does not bring more rap bolters, however at this rate i expect more and more of this crap to make it's way to the pinns.
This is just an opinion, and from an average joe climber. I make up the majority of climbers, this is MY voice. No hard feelings here, just a timely topic on a subject that will only get worse.
Best Regard,
Josh
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Adam and Mark?
Mudncrud getting trolled....Classic.
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Mudncrud getting trolled....Classic.
Yah think??
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Lol, mucci, you are a time place manner guy, but just so long as it is ground up?
Sounds like you're more concerned for top down approach precedent than ground up?
Cheers buddy
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So my next route with be top down.... ;D ;D ;D
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Sounds like you're more concerned for top down approach precedent than ground up
I don't think there should be ANY concern for the top down approach at pinns.
Now there is.
This falls intimately close to drilling on others routes. Both have shown thier faces as of late.
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Have you guys ever done top down? It's still not so easy.
Try it....yah can't knock it until you've tried it ;D
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This is not a troll....I have a lot to say about this... that'll come later along with photos and videos of those that Adam likens to "big dumb animals" (a title that I'm not inclined to disagree with). Until then, evidence of this can be found on the Monolith for all who care to look.
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Have you guys ever done top down? It's still not so easy.
Try it....yah can't knock it until you've tried it ;D
actually you can, with quite a bit of authority. Actions speaking louder than words, as it were.
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First, of all I would love to point out that this thread is not a troll.
I would like to clarify where the route is that is being questioned. They are starting on the Bridwell Bolts at the far right edge just left of the the big overhang underneath Tailspin. When I was 15 or 16 years old Sharma and I started to drill a bolt in almost the exact same location, then we thought otherwise. We decide to rap in and check the questionable rock near the top, which is just left of where Tailspin now finishes. We were turned off by the rock quality in that area and left the first bolt unfinished, which was only drilled maybe a 1/4 inch deep. On subsequent looks at that piece of rock I could even see where the hole was started.
We instead turned our efforts to the spot below Foreplay. We found the one bolt and two chipped and glued holds allready in place with no idea of the origin and decided to continue up. We laboriously hand placed three 1/2 bolts (that's all Bugaboo had in stock the day before) two on lead one on rap and then determined it was likely 5.15. For some reason we pulled the shafts out and left it for dead. We called the boondoogle, Foulplay as it would have been a direct start to Foreplay, and it had those chipped holds. I'm not so proud of that effort, but we were very young and very dumb. But at least one of us could and would climb 5.15, and we attempted good style. I don't think we knew of the word "ethics" yet.
Eventhough we may have acted inappropriately then, I see this current event as a much different and very questionable. I believe these guys are creating scars that in their minds are approriate to their goals of adventure, but inappropriate to us and the future of free-climbing at pinancles. But how do we judge that this is inappropriate? Ethics are culturally defined and these guys are from a different culture and just don't understand our culture. But when we questioned where they were from, to get an idea of their background, they wouldn't answer. Their desire for adventure seems to lead these guys into just putting bolts in without concern for where a free route would actually go. I told them that the free line would definitely go a different direction then they intended and that the rock would likely not cooperate with their intentions. Which I know from having looked at it with 5.14 climbers and having rapped it.
We obviously are left to self regulate, but what actions do we take? Look at Karl as an example. I believe Karl is helping define the new way of Pinnacles routing. He is taking groundup bolting on lead to the maximum. And has ran into the problem of its just too hard to get hooks on at certain point. His thought process is great in my mind. Him and Derek took "West of the Sun" to the edge of impossible and has justified putting in a few bolts on rap, because the route is amazing! I think that route could be the greatest addition to Pinnacles climbing since the 1900's. I have no problem with their style on that route, because many people are thankful for their vision, and problem solving when they couldn't finish it without modifying that style. To me that is a much better decision then leaving another unfinished route on the monolith. And they caused the least amount of impact to the rock by doing so. I'm not saying that Rap bolting is OK but, they created a great finished product. Sure you could go to China to get your product built quicker, but with the drawback of potentially inferior quality, this feels like it is made in America with a few parts from China.
I have friend who will remain anonymous in this post, that I looked at the current route in question with last spring. He would not have a problem rap bolting it but doesn't even want to put the effort into hand drilling, so he contemplated buying a Power Drill for this route. He is among a small group who would love to have a 5.14 at Pinnacles to work on. I think the big question here is how do you put up an ethically conscious 5.14 at Pinnacles, without killing yourself? Better get ready folks, the Post-Modern age has reached the pinnacles.
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If these guys do succeed at putting this route in and it does happen to have bolts in the right locations. I think I would be stoked to climb it, but should I feel bad that I am climbing a route that was put up in bad style? Does that mean I am supporting that style?
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I think I would be stoked to climb it, but should I feel bad that I am climbing a route that was put up in bad style? I'm therefore supporting that style?
This sounds like the response to much of the justification for "Straight Up" being a route that many people are enjoying. (I'm thinking of Gavin's statements which weren't themselves a justification of the route but an observation that supported the justification of others.)
In the evolution of cultural perspectives on what is acceptable, it would seem that one cannot discount the subconscious aspect of the act of participating in a route (pre or post) being an acceptance of that route's lineage. As more and more people climb Straight Up, they are internalizing an unspoken image of bolts in the middle of another route. This then becomes part of the new personal creation of history and thus an individualized perspective of a valid way forward.
Individual history when clashing with a longer social history requires the individual to either claim their mistake or claim a right to change the path of history. Human nature will oft choose the former over the latter, both consciously and subconsciously.
Now that I think about it, the same sort of thing is done in guidebooks as well with some authors refusing to add info about chipped/etc routes due to the addition of acceptability by being in an "official" source like a guidebook. The same account of how the routes that exist and the attention paid to them last longer than the arguments and justifications that swirl around them for the lifespan of the individuals that hold them.
/thread drift
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Again, if Folks want to open the doors on hard climbs they neeed to take on Great Spectacular. The bolts are in and awaiting to be clipped.
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although i may not get a chance to establish a new line, you can count on us to practice good ethics and style. we will also act as stewards of Pinnacles whenever the occasion arises.
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The Great Spectacular? What side of the Monolith is that on? Yeah that looks cool but isn't it closed during the prime season?
This event has provided me a range of emotions and thoughts over the last few weeks. Was confronting them the right course of action? Are we Faggots? Was I acting like a park ranger when I no longer am? and do we have any place telling others what to do? The thoughts posted here have helped reinforce that at a minimum it was right to inform them of the ethical standpoint of the locals. But how much further should we go. I think the five-piece bolt request was also not over the line. But I don't want to start a war, it's everyones park.
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So were they placing stud or 5-piece bolts?
if they were placing stud bolts, did they know how they were going to "remove" them later?
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Their first bolt was a five-piece, and we advised that it would be easier to remove them latter with some simple tools. Hopefully they don't start to place studs just to piss us off.
If anybody goes over there this week an update would be appreciated. I will not be around the Pinns this weekend.
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Yes, Great Sp is closed. but it opens in July or August...perfect weather for it since it's in the shade (I think(.
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Bam! Right there Adam.
If they were rap bolting it, the route would be equipped by now.
BUT they chose Ground up, and thus have offered a window of time to hear pleads from sane individuals who don't want the monolith destroyed with holes. BEFORE the route gets a dozen holes. Proof is in the conversation you had face to face with the guy still in slings.
At this rate, they will never finish that route from the ground, they will need to rap bolt.
Conundrum? Yes. They may just abandon it.
Obviously the areas "Ethic/style" in pinns has been heard. These guys DID NOT start at the top. So those who spend the most time climbing there, rebolting, and picking up trash have had their wishes heard.
Why throw a wrench in by contemplating rap bolting instead? Routes would take HOURS not days to equip.
Not to mention, How sustainable is a 5.14 route at pinns? How many 5.14's do climbers on the upper scale need. Why is the monolith the only place where the hard shit is?
Tons of places, with a bit of an approach could yeild 5.14 at pinns. Problem is, it is all just to feed the GYM.
Too sad.
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Mucci, I think climbers have just as much right to put in a 5.14 as a 5.9 at Pinnacles. All grades are relavant to the varied levels of rock climbers. But the reality is that the only piece of rock that seems viable for a 5.14 at the pinns is the Monolith, due to the small holds that are necessary and the friable nature of pinnacles rock. One of the reasons this lights a fire under my ass is that this is a potentially amazing line.
Furthermore I can't say that these guys are using this to serve the gym. It would be an improper assumption to say that they even climb at a gym or have ever been in one, even though it is likely that they have been in gyms.
And set the record straight because it doesn't seem clear, I don't support rap bolting or bolt ladders.
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I believe Karl is helping define the new way of Pinnacles routing
At what level are those tactics acceptable? 5.13 and up?
I'm not saying that Rap bolting is OK but, they created a great finished product
That's what it's all about.
Wait until the 5.14 territory you guys frequent gets a "Bad finished Product" from a team that put even less time in than karl, and so on ......
I think the big question here is how do you put up an ethically conscious 5.14 at Pinnacles, without killing yourself
Ask Karl.
I commend karl for puttin his work out on the table, I am sure he did a masterfull job on the west route, as I have heard he did on other high end routes. Problem I have is that tactic was justified to the masses for the end product. The same way the next route placed on rappel will be pimped to us.
Edit:
I appreciate you (adam) for giving your thought on the line. as one who frequents that level, I have the utmost respect. I know you have an eye on the park, and understand that rap bolting is not your fortay as much as bolt ladders are mine (at pinns).
Thanks for your words.
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I have no problem with their style on that route... To me that is a much better decision then leaving another unfinished route on the monolith. ... I'm not saying that Rap bolting is OK but, they created a great finished product.
But in a way, you are saying it's ok by stating that you have no problem with their style.
With each additional rap placed bolt, the ever increasing "consensus" bends toward annexation of ethical approaches.
I'm torn by the idea of steep and hard and the perceived need to rap bolt the "hard" lines, but not the easy lines. Definitely a post modern conundrum.
Perhaps that's why I don't dislike bolt ladders, or better yet, bolt and hook ladders. The FA and FFA are ethically isolated that way. The ladder is still ground up. It places enough protection to make the steep and hard stuff relatively safe. But the FFA has the opportunity to take those falls. The only bummer is the clips might suck as an "end product" much like Mucci said in that last post. But hook and stance often has the same effect too at those grades.
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Problem I have is that tactic was justified to the masses for the end product. The same way the next route placed on rappel will be pimped to us.
Beyond this forum, how many folks even know about the ethics Karl and Derek used on "West of the Sun"? When you say "the masses" i don't know what to think because the number of people that have the desire to climb 5.13 and up at the Pinns is pretty small. And furthermore the number of folks who would or could even envision putting up a 5.13 at the Pinnacles (regardless of style choices) could be counted on only one hand.
I may have contradicted myself on the thought about me not being a rap bolter. Maybe if I got into a situation like Karl and Derek did, I may handle myself in the same way, if no other options existed. Maybe even because they set that precedent. Yet despite these question marks as to appropriate style, I would not consider Karl a rap bolter. I give him alot of respect for the decisions he has made and how honest he has been with us about those decisions.
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I am supportive of what was done on the new route West of the Sun. I think they pushed the envelope. The option to rap bolt the entire route was there and some thought that a decent idea, but instead they pushed it as far as they could. Farther than anyone else has. And when I say it, I mean bolting from the ground up. No else has consistently pushed the limits of ground up bolting. Whether people like it or not Karl is the standard. The only thing I do not like about Karl is there was a point in time when I thought I could lead (at least red point) every ground up bolted free route at the Pins. Karl went and screwed that up. Gorillas is the hardest 12 that I have been on at the Pins and I have been all but a couple of the 12's. Think about it, there are not that many of them.
Karl rated West of the Sun 13d, knowing his routes and puttering around on them I will state that Karl rates conservatively. So I venture to say that route is bordering on the realm of the 14's. To me that is pushing the envelope of adventure. I would have liked to see them run it out more but then hey, who am I to say run out that 13+. I have a hard enough time doing it on 10a.
Part of what has always been desired at the Pins is adventure. Part of the argument for ground up is adventure and limited resources. The style implemented on West of the Sun insures both. I also do not like the bolts that go to no where. At the upper limit I think it does not hurt to rap in a take a look. From what I have heard the unfinished routes on the back side of the Monolith will go and I think they will. It is a matter of the right person and the right time. I am not big on previewing moves. I know a fine line but a line indeed.
On the topic of hard routes on rock other than the Monolith. 11's yes, they are still out there and at the grade good climbers can do some crazy stuff. The lines are there. 12's somewhat limited. I have not been everywhere in the park but I have been around a bit and at this grade the options for ground up bolted stuff is limited but they are there. Hooking at this level becomes problematic. With 11's you can hook on crap and make it work since there is plenty of stuff around and/or it is bigger. There is always the option of pounding the tip of your nut tool into the rock, slinging it, and bolting off that (It works I have done it). 12's and higher mean less and smaller which also means the rock needs to be harder. At the 13+ and 14 level there really are not a lot of options especially if the routes are bolted ground up.
I do not have a problem with the desire for hard routes. Always like watching people work them. Get frustrated scream, curse, get thoroughly worked, physically mentally spent. Then one day succeed. The whole thing is awesome. I enjoy watching that same experience at the 5.5 level. I am trying to mellow and realize there has to be compromise. This has to be done at every level, and with all styles. I know I have been a bit of a hot head and at time can be polarizing. I am trying to get better and to a certain degree being in a position where I cannot climb has helped. It has made me stand back and look at what I have done.
This is what bothers me with Straight up. There was no compromise. They did what they wanted to do and the heck with everyone else. With West of the Sun there was compromise. They pushed the envelop and stuck to the standard of the area for all that they were worth. If the hangers are not aesthetic, rap in and paint them. There is room for bolt ladders at the Pins. I know where I want someone to put one in so I can go get the lead :) But the Monolith is not the place. There is a lot of crappy hidden rock where someone can have an adventure and put in a bolt ladder then pull the bolts if they so desire. And in 5 years only a couple of people will know it happened. If it is done real well it might even become popular.
Lastly, yes someone please go out and free The Great Spectacular. It needs it, yes this route needs the love. The fall when the closures have lifted is a good time do eeettttt.
Here's to sweat in your eye
My Name is Mud
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I know where I want someone to put one in
where? PM me.
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where? PM me.
I already have a bolt on it.....
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We already talked about it.
where? PM me.
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talk? You don't talk. You work. 6 x 12
All work and no play makes mud a dull boy.
All work and no play makes mud a dull boy.
...
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I've got a box of star dryvins I'll give to anybody who really wants an adventure, perhaps on the Western Front.
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These animals want an adventure, you should give that box of stardrives to them. Go this weekend and if the are not there just leave them at the base with a nice note.
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NOOOOO, send to me instead! I want me some star dryvs!!
I got some choice lines in mind for those! WOOT!
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1. Yo, Adam, don't get used to using these words together like you did above: "very young and very dumb."
They don't fit well in the same sentence. 8)
2. This is the most elegant and excellent turn of phrase used so far in this thread (by Munge): "Perhaps that's why I don't dislike bolt ladders, or better yet, bolt and hook ladders. The FA and FFA are ethically isolated that way."
Well stated.
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Interesting thread thread with some good food for thought.
Mittens, you out there somewhere? Post that photo.
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Does the fun never end??
Atomizer pointed out this thread to me, and I'm sipping my morning joe enjoying the ramblings of my compatriots. I'll craft a real reply after I get through all the posts. But for now I have this:
Bolt ladders were NEVER cutting edge. On walls, they were a means to an end. At the Pinns, they were put up for fun, nothing else. An I'd bet that if Bird thought of it, he'd probably have bolted the line in question--that guy jones'ed daily for adrenaline & adventure. The bolts he used were standard for the day. He didn't try to make his route adventurous by using smaller bolts. And if you believe he was thoughtful of what others would think of his creation when put up that ladder, ur foolin' urself. Also, the ladder, when it was installed, was a ladder to the top. The top moves now require a hook, for the fact that the last bolt popped.
Anyway, I just needed to clear up any misconception that BB was somehow an 'honorable' route. Never was, never will be. Instead, it's a curiosity created by one of our most adventurous climbing ancestors. And for this it's cool. But it ain't a route that holds high regard.
:- k
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Kelly-
I was using BB as an example of how bolt ladders went from AID specific, meaning the route WAS intended as an aid route. To free climbing minded like Beserker route, or more recent as we are experiencing right now.
Funny how that statement hit a nerve.
Wrong term I guess "cutting edge". However, I know a few guys WAY older than anyone here, they did early repeats of BB, and other "Not cutting edge bolt ladder at pinns". Their recollection is the exact opposite of yours. Bolt ladders at pinnacles were FEARED. Commonplace was to have the bolts fall out as you moved passed them. Examples include Balconies RR, SOD wall, Bridwell bolts.
Though these are the fuzzy memories from a few individuals who climbed there in the late 60's/early 70's.
Sorry for the thread drift, Back to modern "free climbing Intended" bolt ladders.
Edit:
"the masses" Wrong choice of words again....I meant the collective baker's dozen on this site, and the 30 or so lurkers who frequent.
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For those wanting to look at some cutting edge Pinnacles aid (route was not completed) there is an example in the Hanging Valley. Back when I was younger I figured anything would go (that does not mean I was capable). Anyway when I saw this thing I was fairly blown away. It can give a grown man the chills while standing in the mid summer heat.
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I hate to go off topic too much but:
1) Bolting from the ground after rappel inspection is not ground up.
2) Relying purely on aid from the ground to establish a route, then later try to free it is not the kind of adventure that ground up entails and is almost as chinsey as rap bolting.
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For those wanting to look at some cutting edge Pinnacles aid (route was not completed) there is an example in the Hanging Valley.
WANT! Tell me!
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@cabbledik: West Face of Kaspareks. The best way to get a good look is to rap down from the top of Kaspareks and look from the top of the large boulder that is at the base. I suppose it might be just as easy to approach from the bottom and either boulder to the top or do a rope toss.
I used to have pics of this but not sure if I can find them any more. Could not help but to wonder how the pieces stayed where they were.
edit: Take pictures if you go up there.
@MudMittens: I agree on both accounts.
WANT! Tell me!
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1) Bolting from the ground after rappel inspection is not ground up.
2) Relying purely on aid from the ground to establish a route, then later try to free it is not the kind of adventure that ground up entails and is almost as chinsey as rap bolting.
Is number one called "modified ground up" or "modified top down"? Terms I've played around with off an on for a few years to describe ascents I've made on occasion. Does it require a blindfold while rappelling at all times to avoid any taint of vision? :)
On number two, chinsey is considered by some as an ethnic slur. jfyi. Now I'm way off topic. :)
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Take pictures if you go up there.
Will do!
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1) Bolting from the ground after rappel inspection is not ground up.
That seems a little off to me, what if you climb a route and pre-inspect a route ten feet to the side, but without touching the holds, is it illegal to ground up bolt the new route?
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^^^ right
modified ground up
but what is modified top down? Doesn't seem like there can be a thing. One bit of language is in service of a particular view and approach, the other in the opposing direction.
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Illegal? of course not, this isn't RR.
Ground up- Onsight? No.
The Style points start diving as you move further from the above term.
As a climber, revealing the style of ascent is paramount to maintaining the "Honor system".
Somewhere along the line terms like onsight, and rap bolt began to take on new definitions.
The water got cloudy, but the fisherman are still there selling the days catch.
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John and I had a chance to check out the route in question yesterday. The bolt count stays at one. I guess our conversation may have had an impact on those animals.
It was a great day for us at the Pinns. John's 29th birthday was a worthy way to get back into the peacful Friday energy at the Pinns. We got 20 stars and had one of those days that reaffirms my love for the place, climbing, partnerships in climbing, and life in general. Plus the new trailwork at the monolith is really cool.
John is going to be an incredible climber and already is a very talented natural climber. He has only been at it year and is heading down the right trajectory so far. A few weeks ago he almost onsighted Future Shock on TR, but forgot to unclip the last bolt and ended up climbing past it and took a lead fall on TR. He has incredible raw talent for technical Pinns climbing, he just needs to work out the technical safety side of things. It has been cool showing this guy all the classics. Yesterday he got feed the beast, so I put him on Cosmos, which he onsighted. He inspired me to try Pweeter, which a I barely made it through. We had some big adult beverages to celebrate then ended up doing a sloppy ascent of Portent. What a great route! It felt like a highway after all the other stuff we did. Look for John he is a wonderfully nice guy. It really pays to hang around good people.
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sounds like an incredible day. Glad that anchor is gone. Good to hear that is another stoked Master of Mud in the works.
The weather was perfect down there. We started the day with a 20 mile MTB ride at Coe then drove to the Pins and got that at Noon. Fun climbing. Made me wonder why I haven't been getting down there more often.
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The "bolt" count on the route is actually two, but only the second one has a hanger. It is bright and shiny and should be painted.
In looking at it, I'm not sure how you would get a top rope on there to see whether or not a strong young gun might be able to do it. So I think it might go free eventually, just at an extremely high level. It definitely seems like a bolt ladder so far though, and again, probably a poor choice of locations. But other routes have been done with heavy aid, then free'd later.
I just hope the guys that started on it, don't read all this, and assume that we're all Tom Higgins tough and can stance way out on R territory at a hard level, and then consequently give up ground up style because we're getting all holier than thou. I'll be the first to out my climbing partner... the rest of us resort to rope trickery,, bounce testing from the ground, freeing moves, aid to establish bolts, then hooking and other non sense, then work thru it, then do the next one, etc... I say keep up the ground up effort, give a shout, we'll get you on some good stuff to establish some other free climbs!
Hanging the guilty...
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/538737_277136202375300_100002367675760_614207_355039185_n.jpg)
:)
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Warning: Grammatical errors, severe ranting and offensive language.
I'm going to attempt to shift this topic into the very distant future. The future where many of the original Pinnacles FA'ers and long time ethic supporters are..... DEAD. Yes, D-E-A-D dead. Dead from old age, from natural causes with family and loved ones abound, of course. I don't meant to speak out horrific accidents or untimely deaths but aim to mention the one guarantee in life, death. Most of the contributors here will most likely die well before me (I hope). So, when you are all gone what is going to stop me form rapping in on the backside of the monolith and rap bolting the two free standing projects and fuck it, while I'm there I'll go ahead and add some bolts all around just in case something might be climbable just to the left... or right... or right of the one to the left (yeah, I might bolt that line right of the one on the left twice). Ahh screw it, I just grid bolt every six feet apart. And Yes.... I'm leaving fixed draws... everywhere.
What are you going to do about it guys? This fringe activity isn't all the fringe anymore. So many people are starting in the gyms with no education. Believe me, I know. I work at one. So here I am and I feel like a liaison between two generations or climbers and their ethics. I started climbing just shy of the commercial boom of climbing gyms, but I'm still only 24 and I want to put up routes. Easy routes, hard routes. I'd love to bolt a 5.14 project for myself at Pinnacles. But the next generation is huge and vast and shit guys.... I can't manage to teach everyone the bold ethics at Pinns that I stick with. No matter how hard I try. And I try hard. But even at such a small gym I can't get them all to understand.
So.... really... what's so bad about a route like West of the Sun with a few bolts added on rap? I'm psyched about it. That was a huge effort and it just didn't pan out. But a valiant effort was made to hold the ethics as true as possible. I'm psyched for the FA'ers getting after it on West of the Sun. You guys made a great effort and tried to get it done within the "permitted style". But when that was not possible you made the decision to polish off the route in the best style it could be done in and now there is another route for the next generation to climb on. Which just saying... the next gen would have rap bolted that shit. And the one to left. And the one to the right. And the one to right of the one on the left. And don't forget about the perma-draws.
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If anyone would like my above post removed, because Land Managers likes to check in on things, I'll gladly take it away if there is a history of anything like that going on.
It might sound pretty horrible if interpreted wrong.
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the next gen would have rap bolted that shit.
the future remains open
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I will give it a go just cuz I ran out of tree stumps to argue with.
1. disappointed yet again
2. I keep trying
3. We are going to hold you and yours to sending that shit free in good style before we go. We may all be old and crusty but collectively we can kick your ass. So get to gettin.
4. The fringe is a mental state more than anything else. You want to be fringe buck the norm, do it with style instead of the easy way.
5. Not much really. Did he paint the hangers?
6. Please do, I need to update my rack.
Rap bolting is one thing. Style is yet another. You want to be cutting edge and make a statement. Then do so. I realize there are limits to setting hard routes at the Pins at the upper ratings but it can still be done without doing it purely by rap. What says more a 12d/13a ground up or a rap bolted 13d? Right now West of the Sun is the standard. Are you saying that is as far as it can be pushed? I have a difficult time accepting that. Karl is very good but I think the day will come when someone will push that standard further.
Hopefully see you this weekend.
I don't meant to speak out horrific accidents or untimely deaths
Most of the contributors here will most likely die well before me (I hope).
So, when you are all gone what is going to stop me form rapping in on the backside of the monolith and rap bolting the two free standing projects
This fringe activity isn't all the fringe anymore.
So.... really... what's so bad about a route like West of the Sun with a few bolts added on rap?
And don't forget about the perma-draws.
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It was closed do to Raptor nesting.
the future remains open
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Right now West of the Sun is the standard. Are you saying that is as far as it can be pushed? I have a difficult time accepting that. Karl is very good but I think the day will come when someone will push that standard further.
Hopefully see you this weekend.
I'm not saying West of the Sun cannot be as far as ground up can be pushed. That should be made completely clear.
The topic should have been stated: If every proponent of ground up style is deceased before these routes are completed in permitted style then what actions are to be taken by the proponents before the proponents become deceased?
Remember, in this scenario you are no longer around to pass down your knowledge and ideals of climbing. So between that day and now, what are you going to propose is done to keep the open future narrowed to strict ground up ethics?
And I do hope I see you and anyone else this coming week/weekend. I plan to get pumped beyond reason at the Monolith and head back out to sit below Tuff talking myself into seeing what's up there on Friday.
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I see. Well all I can say is, the one constant is change. Hopefully it is something that is handed down from generation to generation. No way to really know, all we can do is hope.
So, when are you sending those routes on the back side of the Monolith?
Don't make me get out of my bark'o lounger.
;)
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what are you going to propose is done to keep the open future narrowed to strict ground up ethics?
Roger that. I see what you're saying.
I'm going to keep on keeping on with ground up shenanigans and having fun at the same time! and keep the dialogue going on esteemed websites such as mudncrud.com.
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Never consider one generation to be the one the "holds" onto style and knowledge and ethics; responsible for enforcement until they finally "give" to the next generation to take over their role. Even the word "generation" should be in parenthesis.
Change is fast and slow, back and forth. Old timers who "look to the future" new timers that want to keep a thread connected to the past. There will always be people on every side, the only thing that truly matters is which point of view has the audacity to act.
Ethics and style permeate places just as much as they do generations, culture, etc. the Pinnacles has a feel to it. Consider where that came from. It didn't come from the people that work to continue it to this day, it came from further back, from people where some are even D E A D now. The few that do stand up, come from that thread and "feel" that's been developed over time on the wall, in coffeeshops, online, etc. You can see a wave of new climbers coming, the reality is that a wave CAN (and always has been) be moved by a small few. Take the "apes" in this thread, people everywhere while they're bolting, but the ones that stop AND ACT, talk to them about how and why and why not and so forth and so on. Walk away and later, there's a bolt or two, but nothing to the top and nothing since (I think). Think there'd be more bolts with the person that stops and acts was supportive of the actions? Damn right. With people telling me I'm right, I've done some stupid, crazy, insane, amazing, right, wrong things. With people telling me I'm wrong, I've been more conservative; I've stopped, gathered more info, "felt" the area more and made better choices.
This is why Ethics and Style are so interesting, because they transcend individuals and arise from community, something so ethereal that when you trace it back to its source, it gets muddy at best. Consider though, we are part of a mentored sport. Everyone that survives links back to the past; some link back early, others much later. That past though keeps changing as well, my generation links to the one before, depending upon their link to the one before to keep the thread going, next generations links back to mine, everything a game of telephone receiving misunderstood words that have to be reinterpreted based upon new context and on and on and on. Purity is a good goal, but it's a fools errand to become obsessed.
Things will be fine. Change the path of the river as much as your single body can. After all, we do not act because of our desired result in the future, we act because of our perceived understanding of what has happened in the past.
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Well said
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...Things will be fine. Change the path of the river as much as your single body can....
Especially well said.
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3. We are going to hold you and yours to sending that shit free in good style before we go. We may all be old and crusty but collectively we can kick your ass. So get to gettin.
My money is on mud...
i was taught to respect my elders and even though at 24 i thought i knew it all i know better now.
with 800+ routes in the monument i find it better to just enjoy climbing and soak up what is already there...
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Never consider one generation to be the one the "holds" onto style and knowledge and ethics; responsible for enforcement until they finally "give" to the next generation to take over their role. Even the word "generation" should be in parenthesis.
Change is fast and slow, back and forth. Old timers who "look to the future" new timers that want to keep a thread connected to the past. There will always be people on every side, the only thing that truly matters is which point of view has the audacity to act.
Ethics and style permeate places just as much as they do generations, culture, etc. the Pinnacles has a feel to it. Consider where that came from. It didn't come from the people that work to continue it to this day, it came from further back, from people where some are even D E A D now. The few that do stand up, come from that thread and "feel" that's been developed over time on the wall, in coffeeshops, online, etc. You can see a wave of new climbers coming, the reality is that a wave CAN (and always has been) be moved by a small few. Take the "apes" in this thread, people everywhere while they're bolting, but the ones that stop AND ACT, talk to them about how and why and why not and so forth and so on. Walk away and later, there's a bolt or two, but nothing to the top and nothing since (I think). Think there'd be more bolts with the person that stops and acts was supportive of the actions? Damn right. With people telling me I'm right, I've done some stupid, crazy, insane, amazing, right, wrong things. With people telling me I'm wrong, I've been more conservative; I've stopped, gathered more info, "felt" the area more and made better choices.
This is why Ethics and Style are so interesting, because they transcend individuals and arise from community, something so ethereal that when you trace it back to its source, it gets muddy at best. Consider though, we are part of a mentored sport. Everyone that survives links back to the past; some link back early, others much later. That past though keeps changing as well, my generation links to the one before, depending upon their link to the one before to keep the thread going, next generations links back to mine, everything a game of telephone receiving misunderstood words that have to be reinterpreted based upon new context and on and on and on. Purity is a good goal, but it's a fools errand to become obsessed.
Things will be fine. Change the path of the river as much as your single body can. After all, we do not act because of our desired result in the future, we act because of our perceived understanding of what has happened in the past.
Dude, so well said. That's what I was looking to read.
"Purity is a good goal, but it's a fools errand to become obsessed." Really well said.
As for ever getting on the routes on the backside of the Pinnacles... well... I've climbed every season in Pinnacles more than any other area since I first tied in. So as long as I keep that up... in about 5-10 years I might be ready to take on those routes if they still happen to be there unfinished. This is the first year I've felt okay about putting in a bolt anywhere at Pinns. I've climbed so much there and have really soaked up the history. Countless hours searching the guide book for FA dates and FA'ers. I can sometimes tell by the feel of the route who put it up. There is a really rad connection going on and all I can think of is that putting up new routes is truly an art form.
Anyways, everyone here has someway or another mentored me in my Pinnacles "career" and for that I'm thankful. The forum is a rad place to bring together so many different climbers who otherwise would never exchange glances let alone philosophize climbing ethics.
If anyone is still thinking I'm the guy who's going to rap bolt everything while no one is looking, well forget about it. That was just my best impression of a "Big Dumb Animal". I'm in no way big (5'11 & 135lbs) Dumb (I can reeds books) or an Animal (I'm pretty domesticated by my girlfriend). I'm the kinda guy who waits to try a route for five years just so I can onsight it. Hangd doggin is sin. Routes are drilled with cramped calves, tired shoulders and dirty faces. Otherwise the route remains without soul, IMO.
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again, well said.
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That was just my best impression of a "Big Dumb Animal".
well you ruined it for me dood - I was looking forward to Mud opening up a can of whoop-ass at the rendezvous.
so now end the suspense...is the KY in your handle for the state or the jelly?
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ruined it for me to. No more trash talking, had to go read a book.
:)
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Kelly-
... I know a few guys WAY older than anyone here, they did early repeats of BB, and other "Not cutting edge bolt ladder at pinns". Their recollection is the exact opposite of yours. Bolt ladders at pinnacles were FEARED.
Ha, LOL.
Indeed, I remember following my buddy up the 2nd pitch of the RR at the Balconies, when I shouted up to him "Hey, one of your pieces fell out!" When I got up to the dislodged piece, I found it to be a bolt hanger clipped to the draw. Ha, Eric had that hanger on his key chain for many years. So yeah, I guess I stand corrected. Bolt ladders could be fearful.
As for the Great Spectacular, I remember Belizzi chortling me to go check out his new route. We got over there and promptly nicknamed it "The Silver Streak," it had so many bolts! But man, I was happy to clip each and every one, we RAINED rock trying to make progress on that thing. But it's really pretty darn cool. Great adventure, Joe Bob sez check it out.
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well you ruined it for me dood - I was looking forward to Mud opening up a can of whoop-ass at the rendezvous.
so now end the suspense...is the KY in your handle for the state or the jelly?
My full name is Kyle. But back in 3rd grade I went by Ky, pronounced in one syllable. It was cute.
No relations to any type of jelly or the state of Kentucky. But the KY Jelly comment is a regular thing. It usually means that person watches to many commercials or frequents that isle at the super market much too frequently.
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Ok, so this is getting good again.
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Not going to lie, both jabs were pedestrian at best. Put up or shut up boys, the old timers want a show.
(http://cache.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Popcorn-04-Buffy.gif)
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Not going to lie, both jabs were pedestrian at best. Put up or shut up boys, the old timers want a show.
ouch!
sorry professor i didn't know we were being graded. i'm just an aging ex damn yankee who enjoys toilet humor and having fun. my best zingers are reserved for people i've known a long time.
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As an example, look to the Elbsandstein, near Dresden, Germany. They have been doing first ascents ground up for over 100 years and the tradition is still being respected by the young guns like 19-year old Adam Ondra, arguably the best climber in the world these days and he's not even German, he's Czech.
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Same with Czech sandstone that Ondra put up a 9a recently. Even at that level, ground up, runouts the whole deal, and this is after a German climber rap bolted and chipped the route causing it to be chopped by the local climbing commission.
link to article (http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=39344)
These safer routes and the tolerance to using chalk might make some people believe they are at a sport crag where bolting by abseil is allowed, but this is not the case.
In fact, "To tu jeste nebylo" was first bolted by abseil about five years ago by a German climber who ignored the sandstone ethics. In addition, two holds were chipped. The local climbing committee decided to chop the bolts as a result and, last spring, Ondra Benes started to equip the route ground-up. After a huge effort he managed to place three bolts, but he got stuck in the terrain above. Last autumn I managed to place the fourth bolt after many falls and climbed the run-out to the top of the cliff.