MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: mynameismud on June 13, 2011, 09:49:05 AM
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There is a rumored 5.13 in the works, hand drilled ground up.
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KA = kickin ass
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no rumor, truth. Mr 13b was raving about it.
same source???
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one of the sources.
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So you found our project?
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which one?
:)
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Mud, that's a good question.
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The suspense is killing us.
Please send that stuff so it can be posted, and do not forget to take pics.
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sent it sunday. using 2x chalk bags.
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2x chalk bags? fuk why didn't I think of that. Maybe because I always lose those things.
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that's the Belizzi trademark. I think you have to pay royalties. ;D
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that's the Belizzi trademark.
;D ;D
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Isn't the title of this threat Vicious lies and slander?
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I need to chime in to keep these rumors from turning into legend. Derek & I have spent 7 days bolting, making safe, and occasionally even climbing this route. “Mr. 13b” did put in the first bolt (a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away) and the grade does seem to be in the 13+ range.
To respect the local ethic & history, we bolted by hand on lead. After three long days of bolting we hit a true wall. We had passed the V7(ish) crux and hit a section that was all underclings and 90deg sidepulls. We spent an entire day trying to find any way to place the 11th bolt and came to the realization that bolting a ladder would be the only way to continue bolting on lead. So, we could have just stopped the route at 65% of the wall or start grid bolting the thing. We brought a ¼” drill bit and a piece of ¼” rod to hang from. Both of us tried to summon the courage to drill meaningless holes in the rock and both of us could not. The rock is so steep there, that it would take two or three “work holes” for every actual bolt. That means we get 3 or 4 holes in the rock for every bolt.
We spent three hours trying to do this and staring at the atrocity that is Ranger Bolt Ladder. Then, we debated the meaning behind the ground up ethic. I know that it is intended to have a sense of adventure, but the main point is to make us think twice about putting hammer to drill. Isn’t the point to protect the rock and do as little damage to the rock as is necessary? So, is a bolt ladder preferable to hanging from a rope? We even discussed leaving it as is. Yes, another ¾ bolted project on the back side of the Monolith. At least it would have good company.
In the end we decided that we had tried our best; we had drilled several bolts that would have meant ground falls if our piece popped, we tried every shenanigan that I learned from bolting previously at Pinns, we had made it 70’ up the wall, & Derek even had the pleasure of taking a dinner plate sized piece to the back (from 60’) when my hook tore it from the wall. We refused to place three holes for every bolt, so we lowered in and placed a couple bolts. [I know that this may not sit well with everyone, but I will gladly discuss it with anyone who wants to.] Over, the next few days we continued the bolting on aid and lead until we hit the top.
The route is massive at over 37 meters. It has two distinct cruxes and 17 bolts (almost all of which were bolted on lead). We removed the makeshift anchor someone placed above and removed the current deadly Ranger Bolts anchor. We then place one solid anchor that both routes can use, very close to the original Ranger anchor.
We then removed several death blocks and started working the route. We have climbed every move, but really don’t know how hard it will end up being. 13+? 14-? Or, will we find some super-tricky sequence? We will not be able to find out until the fall, unless a massive cold snap hits.
Anyway, I know that was long, but I didn’t want to have any doubt as to how the route went up and what the grade will be.
Karl
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Nice job!
Mr13b was pretty stoked and was raving about it.
I will keep my son on his training regimen. It'll be another 10 yrs, but worth the wait.
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Karl,
Congrats, and to bad you got shut down and the all clean ground up bolt effort. I have no problems with what is being done. I think that you gave it an all out effort says a lot. No one has consistenly pushed the upper end of the ground up ethic as far as you have. Just glad to see you push it as far as you have.
Before talking to Mr 13b I had assumed all the bolting had been done top down. When you end up going for the clean ascent if you all can manage take some picks and post up. It is an impresive looking line. Look forward to seeing what you do next.
Here's to sweat in your eye
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That is really great to hear.
The nice thing is that it is cleaning up quite nicely. There were some massive flakes (that we used during the bolting) which we took off and it still climbs well. We think that it is almost completely cleaned up. However, as we go for the ascent, I'm sure some stuff will come off. But, I'm pretty sure all the stuff we are using so far will stay!
Now, I have something to look forward to in the fall!
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Pinnacles rules, huh? :o ;D
Masters of Choss!!!!4!!
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Wow, the line that even Sharma didn't think was possible, way back in the day. Good work guys, I can't wait to check it out, but for now it is off to the Range of Light.
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Karl:
I'm desperately uncomfortable with any bolts ever going in top down at Pinns; it's just too slippery a slope. I wish they hadn't gone in that way here. But I continue to like, admire and respect you and your routes. Three reasons come immediately to mind:
1. You show immense respect for the rock;
2. You continue to show immense respect for the climbing community at Pinnacles, for it's collective views and values (even though you did something I wish you hadn't, it is clear to me that you didn't do it out of arrogance and/or disregard of others);
3. You are (and always have been to my knowledge) totally honest about what and how you've done things.
It's hard to argue with someone's approach to a climb when these three things are present.
Good luck with a redpoint. Sounds like you may have created a monster for yourselves here?
Do you have a working name for it yet? (Or did I miss that above?)
Sincerely,
Brad
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How about one of the following names?
Vaporizer, where did the holds go? And after the 1st bolter
Tuburcios Torment?
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Karl:
I'm desperately uncomfortable with any bolts ever going in top down at Pinns; it's just too slippery a slope. I wish they hadn't gone in that way here. But I continue to like, admire and respect you and your routes. Three reasons come immediately to mind:
1. You show immense respect for the rock;
2. You continue to show immense respect for the climbing community at Pinnacles, for it's collective views and values (even though you did something I wish you hadn't, it is clear to me that you didn't do it out of arrogance and/or disregard of others);
3. You are (and always have been to my knowledge) totally honest about what and how you've done things.
It's hard to argue with someone's approach to a climb when these three things are present.
Good luck with a redpoint. Sounds like you may have created a monster for yourselves here?
Do you have a working name for it yet? (Or did I miss that above?)
Sincerely,
Brad
I second that on all fronts. Moreover, Karl's one of the few guys pushing ground up at Pinns at the higher end of difficulties. A not so common occurrence these days. Up at the higher end, do we end up just doing a bolt ladder and bat hooks (and essentially chisel 'useless' for free climbing 'holds/holes') to push a line "ground up" or do we discretely (yet publicly with full transparency and respect for the rock) go with top down on a few bolts?
I don't know that there is a good answer to this, but my understanding is that there are other bolts at pinns that had a similar approach at the higher end. The concern I think is for precedent setting. Appealing to those existing bolts begs the question. And in turn others may appeal to this line, perhaps at a different rating.
Let those that climb at that difficulty give it some burns (after karl gets the redpoint :). If the climb is good, maybe it should stay. If not so good, then decide.
I'm sure others have thought about this already, but wanted to clarify what I think Brad was getting at for myself.
thoughts?
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From what I know, which isn't much, there are only two routes at this grade where the FA party has attempted to bolt ground up. Those two routes are Karl's new route and Belizzi's Great Spectacular. Neither has yet to have an FFA/FFL. Belizzi successfully bolted his route but I think part of it is a bolt ladder (I could be wrong on this).
What I like about both of these routes is the FA parties gave it an all out effort to go ground up. I think once most people get to this grade they bolt the whole thing top down. I do not have a problem with hard routes and actually enjoy getting on them (If for no other reason than to entertain those that can). I suppose it could be argued that they should just run it until they can get to a hook placement but considering there has been just as much, if not more, objections to run out routes I do not really think that can be asked. The number of people with a last name like Huber is limited and those folks do not climb at the Pins.
I like and appreciate people who push limits, it makes me want to try harder. I think if more people used this ethic at the high end, we would have more mixed routes. Both Hot Lava Lucy and Ranger Bolts have sections that could have been bolted on lead. I will also say this about Karl, he rates his routes conservatively. Gorilla's is fricken hard.
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roger that.
on this point below, I'm not so sure, but otherwise appreciate what your saying.
objections to run out
in general, objecting to run outs on a ground up route (if done without bat hooks) is like objecting to sliced bread that comes directly from a bakery. not everyone gets a slice of hot fresh bread right off the slicer, but they still know that's the way bread is made.
ok, that analogy is full of holes, but I'm hungry. Haven't eaten lunch. mmmm, butter
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ok, that analogy is full of holes, but I'm hungry. Haven't eaten lunch. mmmm, butter
Dude sometimes you absolutely crack me up.
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I am not here for your entertainment!!
:)
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Thought crossed my mind. On routes this hard drilling bat hook holes would definitely be considered sculpting so not an option. So the options are; bolt what you can on lead ground up and rap bolt what you cannot, rap bolt, run it out on super hard terrain with loose junk, go home. I suppose there is one other option. Really hard routes become TR's.
The selfish part of me likes the last option since it makes the possibility of me actually getting some hard climbs ticked off an option. Not Karl, Adam, mudmittens hard, but you know, fledgling hard.
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Thought crossed my mind. On routes this hard drilling bat hook holes would definitely be considered sculpting so not an option. So the options are; bolt what you can on lead ground up and rap bolt what you cannot, rap bolt, run it out on super hard terrain with loose junk, go home. I suppose there is one other option. Really hard routes become TR's.
The selfish part of me likes the last option since it makes the possibility of me actually getting some hard climbs ticked off an option. Not Karl, Adam, mudmittens hard, but you know, fledgling hard.
yep, succinct statement of the main 5 options i was tossing around.
a variant for lower grades is get stronger, do it ground up.
or
permit a single bathook, because no route at pinns is really that long, which also mitigates against running it out on choss.
too bad it's so hard to T-off on an aider using bat hooks, that would permit spacing the bolts out with minimal unfilled hole type drilling.
if epoxy wasn't strictly illegal in NPS then back filling a bat hook hole might be rationale for using bathooks because the visual blight concern would be gone.
mrs. munge says run it out, "because if you are going to be crazy in a crazy place, be crazy in a crazy place." (do give her opinion more weight since she's never climbed inside of a gym? :) )
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ya cannot put in a hole for a bat hook. If it is big enough to take a hook and have the hook hold, it is a hold. I understand, and I think Karl made the point in his post, some people disagree with rap bolting no matter what. I understand, just do not necessarily agree. However, it can be easy for the ethos to be applied to easier and easier routes. Where does one draw the line?
Same can be said for drilling holes for bat hooks. What constitutes a good enough hole for a hook or a dowel? Aid is for the most part aid. When freeing routes those features become useful, and the feature just might make the difference.
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yeah, I did one route top down on SPH because I knew that if I copperheaded the seam to put in the bolts, it would have made the line that much easier because you could use the copperhead placement as a better side pull. In that case I topped down to preserve the free climbing and not alter the rock beyond what was needed to protect it. I also found good nut placements fore and aft of the bolts, so there was no 'bolting next to a crack' i.e. not totally a convenience route.
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It is nice to see an open dialogue about this!
I know that some just flatly disapprove of our choice to install a few bolts on rap. However, I hope they understand why we refused to drill unnecessary holes in the rock. However, whether or not the route would stay or not, should not be in question. I feel like Derek and I truly tried to keep with the spirit of Pinnacles tradition while keeping in mind modern ideals regarding excessive rock damage.
I hope that everyone can at least appreciate the time, money, thought, and care we took in doing this. Derek and I have been discussing this route ever since I first asked "Mr. 13b" about if he would open it up, which was almost 4 years ago.
Karl
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I'm very impressed. Bolting ground up at that level at the Pinns seems like quite an experiment to me. I see no harm in the way it has been done. If the whole thing was rap bolted it would be a different story. I am very glad that Sharma and I didn't rap bolt that thing when we top roped it back in the 90's. A big thumbs up to this community for starting and accepting this dialogue. I'm glad to be here and also check out this route... in the fall.
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I'm glad you folks are here and contributing. I had seen the chalk marks back in the 90's where you and Sharma were TR'ing this line. Did not know who it was back then, just heard rumors that Sharma had TR'd several lines on the Monolith but that was it.
It looks impressive and imposing. Did you and Sharma get the line clean on TR?
I also heard rumor that the partially bolted line to the right of Ranger Bolts had been TR'd clean? Do you know if that is true?
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partially bolted line to the right of Ranger Bolts had been TR'd clean
isn't that Karl's line?
someone needs to post pics! :)
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Sharma never got the line left of ranger bolts clean. We only tried it on one occasion and never really thought of going back to it. We seemed to think it wouldn't go at the time. But Mittens and I thought about trying it earlier this year.
The lines to the right of Ranger Bolts were put in by Tom Davis. Chris and Sterling Keene top roped the lines and got at least one clean. I've been told what they thought the ratings were, but I'd rather keep that secret because we have gotten permission to finish them, when were ready. Tom expressed interest in going back up them, but I think he is crazy to believe he could do them at this point. It would be special for me to finish one of his lines. Tom holds a big hold in my heart, having given me and the climbing community som much over the years. I don't know what would have happened to me if I didn't walk into Pacific Edge 17 years ago.
I had such a good season at the Pinns this year which I emerged from with a passion I have never felt for climbing before. I have got my eye on a few things and am stoked put up other new lines this fall.
Threads like this make me super thankful that rap bolting didn't take over years ago and steal the remaining good lines.
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good history there
you guys certainly have the skills for those lines.
still, this thread needs more pics.
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Will be good to see someone finish those lines. Back in the day I spent way to much time staring at them (not enough actually trying to get on them).
Tell Tom I said he is to old, fat and crusty to finish that line, and that he should just sit down, finish his burrito and enjoy the show. :)
Oh yeah, do not forget to tell him I said
Here's to sweat in your eye
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Will be good to see someone finish those lines. Back in the day I spent way to much time staring at them (not enough actually trying to get on them).
Tell Tom I said he is to old, fat and crusty to finish that line, and that he should just sit down, finish his burrito and enjoy the show. :)
Oh yeah, do not forget to tell him I said
Here's to sweat in your eye
Nice one ;D
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Insert Quote
Will be good to see someone finish those lines. Back in the day I spent way to much time staring at them (not enough actually trying to get on them).
Tell Tom I said he is to old, fat and crusty to finish that line, and that he should just sit down, finish his burrito and enjoy the show.
Oh yeah, do not forget to tell him I said
Here's to sweat in your eye
Is this the pot calling the Kettle??
I'm just saying....
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Is this the pot calling the Kettle??
I'm just saying....
I speak from experience?
Nah, I will CRUSH YOU!
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Intriguing....
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The Title does say vicious lies and slander...
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The Title does say vicious lies and slander...
Isn't Mungie in Idohooo??
Must be working on his summer compound.
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Moses seemed to think this was an open project. Is this true? Or was it just suggested to him that he could check it out but is required to fall before the finish?
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I think the lines to the right of Ranger Bolts are open. That is what I have heard through the grapevine over the last few few years. The line to the left of Ranger Bolts is an active project.
Somebody really needs to free The Great Spectacular. It is well bolted (the work has been done), 2 hard pitches and one pitch of 5.10 that is supposed to be one of the best in the Monument. It has been sitting there for decades.
Another cool looking line is the wall to the right of Bat Cave. It has two bolts in it. will definitely be very hard being slightly overhanging all the way then kicks back even steeper the last 10 - 15 feet or so. Black wall looks way cool.
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Mud, it seems like you don't know. I talked to Moses and Karl told him to give it a whirl. I'm not really interested in this line anyways as I can't even do Ranger Bolts. I most likely wont be around Pinnacles until next year, so maybe it will have seen a glorious ascent by then. Until then I'm Doing a 2 month end to end Sierra peak bagger trip, then off to see The Sharmas in Spain, and then ski around in the Sierra for a while. Life is looking up.
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2nd Great Spectacular...the line looks cool.
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Atomizer, you are correct I do not know. Enjoy the peak bagging and the trip to Spain sounds like fun. Cannot say I am climbing much but at least I am starting to get on the bike fairly regular. In the middle of a diy home remodel (fun of another kind).
Take Care.
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To be clear. I never told Moses to give it a whirl. I did tell him that Derek and I MIGHT open it up (after we finished). Moses suggested that we give it a few goes first. After Derek and I finished it, we decided that we absolutely want some time to send it.
One of us should be strong enough to get it done quite quickly, as soon as the weather gets better.
Karl
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route names?
2x to help....
Vaporizor
40oz to Freedom (if you happened to bring a 40oz for when you finish it).
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We are hoping that a name comes out of the feel of climbing it.
When I named Gorillas in the Moss, I was going for a primate themed area. At the time, there was Ape Index and I thought that names like "This Monkey's Gone to Heaven" or "Project X" would work well back there. However, Penguin Handshake got sent like a week before I did Gorillas and that idea went away.
We have kicked around some names, but none have stuck. We know that a linkup with Ranger bolts needs to be called Stranger Bolts.
If we'd been able to do the whole thing ground up, we would have used "Legends of the Fall".
Karl
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have a route in mind with a perfect name. Fukingshambles. Now I just have to get in good enough shape to do it.
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What about shinnanigans?
No technique, just trickery...
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Vapor Trail?
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Chris ("Mr. 13b") just stopped by the house on his way to Column of the Giants. He needed to pick up his sunglasses which I've had for a while. And some topos to which he'll add information.
As usual we laughed (how can one talk to Chris and not do some laughing?).
But, to the point of the post: we noticed that one more of my climbing friends has officially "gone down!" My oldest daughter Katie is now noticeably taller than Mr. B. There are very few of us who are still taller than she is (is my day coming?).